Atheism/Agnosticism General Discussion #1

[echidna]

What I was thinking, discussion turns to say Christenings. And a friend says how great it is to be baptised so you can go to heaven, ...... and then offers to pray for your baby. Sometimes I feel patronised when someone I am talking to knows I am non-religious keeps talking about religion or keeps trying to win me over.

[Aimz]

Personally, I don't bring up my belief system unless somebody brings up theirs with me. I am confident enough with my life stance that I can openly and honestly describe my own beliefs without feeling I have offended anyone.

My Uncle once said to me, after explaining my belief system (Humanism) that he would pray for my eternal soul because he feared I would not be accepted into heaven. I politely told him his prayer wasn't necessary.

[Aimz]

do you feel offended when someone of faith tells you how great their faith is and offeres to pray for you?

Just further to my previous post...

I think when people are honest and open about how great their faith is, then that can be a cue for you to be honest and open about yours. What I did was establish where my beliefs lie. It's one thing to say that you don't believe in God, so what DO you believe in? Where do your values and morals come from? What keeps you going? What pushes you?

Having done extensive research into Humanism and establishing this as my belief system, I have been able to come up with a response that answers all of these questions without simply saying "Because I just don't believe in God". I can say that I believe that Humans create their own destiny, we create our own purpose in life. When we die, I don't believe we go to Heaven, but I do believe we live on in the people who's lives we touched, because we leave our mark on them, our impression (this in turn has a butterfly effect). My values and morals are born from an appreciation for the world in which we live. I feel we have a responsibility to protect the Earth for future generations of Humans. I believe that people have a duty to be good to each other, and being good to yourself is the core of that belief.

There is a way of explaining your belief system without offending anyone - that's my way of doing it! And I am not offended when people open up about their religion. In fact, I find it facinating and I learn as much as I can from them. I think it's important that we have tolerence for ALL belief systems. Understanding brings peace.

[suse]

Echidna, in the situation you've described, your friend seems to have little respect for your choices, and I can understand how her offer to pray for your daughter makes you feel uncomfortable, because she is implying that there is a 'need' to do so. I feel that there is a difference between somebody praying for you (for example, that good things happen in your life) as an extension of love and respect, and somebody praying for you because they believe that you will not be a full and complete person unless God is in your life.

Belief is such a personal thing. The fact that I don't believe in a higher power does not make a Christian's belief any less valid, and vice versa.

Would you feel comfortable telling her that you respect her faith and that it is important to her, but would prefer not to discuss religion with her at all unless she genuinely is interested in your choices? I agree with Amy that it is valuable to have your own moral position clearly defined, and at the end of the day, all you need to know is that you are comfortable with your own beliefs, if somebody else is not, that's their problem.

[echidna]

Actually it was a hypothetical friend. I do have religious friends who know that I have been in and out of religion, and don't push it anymore. They know that I will go to church when I am ready.

Its not that I don't believe in God. Its more of a, there might be a God, but I don't see the point of praying in my opinion. Many people need it, and I understand that. But I take a step back and look at it this way, the most devout countries have more poverty, famine and disease than secular, or not-so-religious countries. IMO praying doesn't produce money, food or medicine (or a cure), so I feel its a wasted effort. Everyone needs hope, but I'm more of an active prayer. How can I actually do something about my plight, rather than praying for God to fix it?

[suse]

I don't know that many people of faith would agree that prayer is simply about asking God to 'fix' things as such, and of having a passive approach to life, my understanding is that self-determination is recognised in most theistic faiths, hence the human capacity for free-will. (ETA: I'm happy to be corrected if this is not the case)

Being non-religious does not necessarily mean that you are agnostic or atheist though, and there are many people who have some form of faith without following an organised religion.

The principle tenet of agnosticism is knowledge, whereas the principle tenet of theism/atheism is belief. As a philosophical position rather than a statement of faith, agnosticism is independent to theism, in that one can follow a theistic doctrine or have belief in a god without claiming to have or wishing to have knowledge of the existence of that god. Although it at first seems contrary in nature, it can be argued that the very notion of faith is by definition agnostic - insofar as faith is belief without knowledge, and thus all theists are also agnostic.

Another good explanation of the agnostic position is this (from aboutatheism website):

Philosophically, agnosticism can be described as being based upon two separate principles. The first principle is epistemological in that it relies upon empirical and logical means for acquiring knowledge about the world. The second principle is moral in that it insists that we have an ethical duty not to assert claims for ideas which we cannot adequately support either through evidence or logic.

and

Agnosticism can be classified in a similar manner to atheism: 'Weak' agnosticism is simply not knowing or having knowledge about god(s) - it is a statement about personal knowledge. The weak agnostic may not know for sure whether god(s) exist but does not preclude that such knowledge can be obtained. 'Strong' agnosticism, on the other hand, is believing that knowledge about god(s) is not possible - this, then, is a statement about the possibility of knowledge.

[echidna]

Well I don't really read into things. I honestly didn't know the definitions of the terms, and I wasn't really interested anyway. But, I guess I am more agnostic than athiest. More of a weak than a strong agnostic. I don't not believe in a higher power, but I feel there could be one, but I don't feel they need my worship. When I have actively prayed, my life was no better than when I am not praying. I don't believe in miracles. I am a scientific person, and everything can be explained. If things cannot be explained, given time and more knowledge of the universe, it will become explained. Look at history, magic and blasphemy were science, and those that did not understand were afraid and persecution ensued etc. After the dark ages, science was popular again, especially in the health field. Everyone wanted to see a doctor to cure ails, rather than the priest for a blessing.

One of the most famous miracles, Jesus walking on water. I just keep saying to myself, he was walking on a sandbar. That's if Jesus ever existed. If there is no proof, then it is likely to not be true. I believe in the theory of evolution. So much evidence. To believe that Adam and Eve were the first people, to me, is preposterous. They had two sons, one of which killed the other. How the heck does the human race develop from that family? And furthermore, there would have been very little genetic difference, leading to birth defects. Its beyond me.

I respect that many many people believe in a faith. To believe that someone or something is moving the pieces of life in place and so forth is important to many people, who feel that something must explain what they cannot explain. I believe there is a good chance there is a higher power, but I have less than heresay in a form of evidence. Sometimes a coincidence or event is just too odd to have happened naturally. But I try not to think that it is a higher power who performed it, as I have no evidence.

I get the occasional whisper, I guess similar to being psychic. I don't believe I am psychic, but sometimes I get a whisper, a yes or no question, without warning or reason to dispute. I only have a moment to make the decision before an event. I do not know what the event is. When I was younger, a tree fell against the house. A branch went through the open window, and moments before, I had a whisper: go over and get that block. So I did. Had I not moved, the tree branch would have gone through my face. Every now and then I get whispers. Another time was when I was in high school. I was fooling around with my boyfriend in my bedroom with the door closed. My top was undone. I had a whisper, do up your shirt and stop fooling around. I did that. Sat on my bed reading, and Mum opened the door with force, glaring at me. But I wasn't doing anything wrong. Had I not done what the whisper said, I would have been sorely punished.

DD is upset, back later.

[suse]

I honestly didn't know the definitions of the terms, and I wasn't really interested anyway.

Oh well. I hope you got some benefit from the info, and if not, I'm sure someone else will find it useful