Jehovah's Witness'

[Peg]

i have two questions - after seeing Berenice post about how she doesn't vote - did a quick google search and it says that jehovahs witness are discouraged to vote how come? (i dont mean to offend i just wondered why)

the other is all the jehovahs witness churchs/places of worship i have seen seem to be very fenced in - more then other Christian places of worship and was wondering why that is - or if its just the ones i've seen?

It pretty much has to do with our allegience. We beleive that when we get baptized we are declaring our allegience to Gods kingdom. 'Thy Kingdom Come' is a very well known christian prayer.

If we were to become involved in the politics of this world and start voting for human leaders, we are in effect denying our allegience to God and his rulership. We've voted for Jesus and his Kingdom and therefore thats what our vote is. I believe Jesus would make a far better ruler then Mr Rudd if you know what i mean.


With regard to fences around the kingdom halls, i've been to numerous halls that do not have fences. But like all properties, secrurity is fairly important and if fences are erected, i can assure you its not to keep everyone out. Our halls are open to the public for all our meetings and most kingdom halls will display the times and days of the meetings, so everyone is welcome to attend. The gates are always open when a meeting is in progress.

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

Ditto to Peg - JW's are always neutral because we believe that no man/woman will ever completely fix the worlds problems, the only one who can do that is Jehovah. Everyone else always has an ulterior motive

WRT the fences, the Kingdom Hall I go to opens the gates for people to come in but closes them during the meetings - we're in a fairly high crime area and there's nothing worse than coming out from the meeting all upbeat only to find your window smashed. It's definitely not meant to make people uncomfortable

[Dansta]

ahh thanks ladies! it makes sense with the voteing! to not get fined do you put down religious reasons or just pay the fine? (sorry if thats out of line)

and the fences. yep. fairly rough neighborhoods that i have seen the halls in - maybe because they looked nice and clean and well kept.

[Peg]

ahh thanks ladies! it makes sense with the voteing! to not get fined do you put down religious reasons or just pay the fine? (sorry if thats out of line)

you may not realise this but we get a 'get out of jail free card'

No, not really. There is a clause in the voting laws (and i am not 100% but i think it may have come about due to the stand that JW's have taken) that allows the choice of voting. If you've ever had one of the fines you'll see that you have the option of ticking a little box about why you didnt vote.

one of the legitimate reasons why you didnt vote is because you are a "Conciencious Objector"
So we do get the fine, but because we tick conciencious objector we dont have to pay it. The requirement to state your reason for being a consciencious object has to be valid and being a JW is a valid reason.

Recently i was still registered on the roll at my old address and because I didnt put a vote in at the state election I recieved a fine. I called them up to explain that i had moved to a new electorate and was on the roll in my new electorate (yes we still have to be registered to vote), I was told that some people who are failing to vote were ticking that box to get out of paying the fine....i guess they know that there are only 65,000 odd JW's in australia and they were probably getting a lot more 'consciencious objector' forms back then they should have. So he said i should writer the name of my congregation and the name of one of the elders in order to confirm that I am a JW. I dont know if all JW's are doing this or have to do this, but It was the first I heard about it.

[sneakysparkle]

Hi ladies, I thought I'd post a couple of questions that I have after our recent discussions! Now I'm not trying to debate here, but I am interested in how you get to the beliefs you have

1. Now I know that you have your own scripture that you use to illustrate your point, but WRT the trinity, and Jesus - how do you go about the verse in Philippians 2 that Cricket quoted in the previous thread? How about in Genesis 1:26 when it says "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness..."

2. Now please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read (and heard) that the watchtower (which I believe is the authority under which JW's reside) have on a number of occasions changed/added to or updated the scriptures? How does that work? Does that not go against Revelation 22:18-19?

I had thought of other things that Ive forgotten now I'll most likely be back

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

Geez SS, we're getting into the deep stuff now! Thats alright, I'll try to explain it and hopefully it'll make some sense

1. After looking through my bible, I'm guessing the reference is Philippians 2:5-7? In the New World Translation, that actually reads: 'Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave's form and came to be in the likeness of men.' So here, Paul was using Jesus as an example when explaining to the Philippians the need for humility. He was showing that Jesus obviously held Jehovah as higher than himself, and therefore didn't even consider himself an equal. Interestingly, look at how some other Bible translations read -

'Who, being in the form of God, did not regard it as a thing to be grasped at to be on an equality with God' - The New Testament
'He - truly of divine nature! - never self-confidently made himself equal to God' - Das Neue Testament
'Who, although being in the form of God, did not consider being equal to God a think to greedily make his own' - La Bibbia Concordata
'He always had the nature of God, but he did not think that by force she should try to become equal with God' - Today's English Version
'Who, being in the form of God, did not count equality with God something to be grasped' - The New Jerusalem Bible

Sometimes it's claimed that these renderings imply that Jesus already had equality but didn't want to hold onto it, or he didn't need to grasp at equality, because he already had it, which is another basis for Trinitarian beliefs. But if you look at the original Greek text (har pa'zo) it means to seize, or snatch violently, which wouldn't be necessary if Jesus was part of God or equal to God.

As for the scripture you quoted in Genesis - I don't understand how that can be used to support the Trinity? It seems quite clear, at least to me, that Jehovah is talking to another person, using 'our' and 'us', rather than 'me' or 'my'!

2. Firstly, our authority is Jehovah and the Bible - the Watchtower is just a tool used to help us learn. It is used to explain different facets of the Bible so that we can understand In regards to changing or adding to the Bible, we absolutely do not change it, or add to it. While we use a different bible to what most other people use, The New World Translation, you only need to compare it to many other generally accepted bibles to see that it is the same. Also to this point, I would like to respectfully ask if your bible uses God's name, Jehovah? That is probably the only 'change' we have made, and even then, God's name has only been put back into the Bible, whereas other translations took it out and put in 'Lord' or similar. So, not so much a change as a restoration.

In regards to changes made when translating from ancient languages, a LOT of effort went into reading and understand the old language before translating it into the new. This requires, not just reading the verse in question, but reading the verse in context with what is around it, and understanding the different meanings that can be applied to old world languages. This is where most doctrinal problems come in, through translations that are not as accurate, or translations that have been coloured by the translators own understanding.

Something else you may have heard, which is similar, is that our core beliefs change, and this may be interpreted as changing the bible. Definitely, there have been major changes in our understanding of the Bible. For instance, we used to celebrate Christmas and birthdays. We used to smoke. At one time it was firmly believed that the end of this system would come in 1975! The first two examples were a lack of understanding, and once Jehovah helped his 'slave' understand that we were wrong, we quickly changed. As for the end of the system in 1975, this was caused by relying on man's understanding, rather than Jehovah's. A lot of people stopped being Jehovah's Witnesses when the system didn't end, but it has to be asked - were they actually serving Jehovah, or were they serving because they thought they knew the deadline? Proving our love for Jehovah means nothing if we know when our reward will come. Like, if I knew the end wouldn't come for another 5 years, I could go out, do whatever I wanted, and then make sure I'm back serving Jehovah before Armageddon - and that would only prove Satan's point, that humans only serve Jehovah for the reward. But, if we don't know when it will come, we have to serve Jehovah through the good and the bad, and that REALLY proves Satan to be a liar

I hope all that made sense, feel free to ask more questions!

[~clover~]

Well...I do want to say thanks for going into all this. I went to school with a JW. We were very good friends. She was shunned from the congregation at 15 after we were silly & tried to run away from home. She lived with her father & 3 brothers, all JW's, & was sent away to live with her mother, who wasn't a JW.
She had a hard time with it though. Her father (who it turns out was her step father, she didn't know til she was 15) was quite strict with her. She wasn't allowed to socialise out side of school with people who weren't JW's. At school she just wanted to be normal, so she used to get us to buy packs of christmas cards for her so she could give them out. & we used to do something little for her birthday every year. Just coz we didn't like that she was left out.
I do understand a bit now about why she was sent away, but at the time I thought it was rediculusly unfair. To be turned away from the only family she'd known. Her mother had left quite a few years earlier, & she had nothing to do with her. But I do think she wanted a reason to get out. Not just from the church, but from the confinements of her life.
Today she has one of her brothers living with her. I think he may be autistic. I'm not sure if he left the church, or if he was too much for their father to deal with, so he sent him to their mother also (the mother is odd & useless TBH).
I never really understood much about their religion. We asked the odd question & talked about some things, but in high school there are so many more important things to talk about...like boys etc! lol

[Peg]

1. Now I know that you have your own scripture that you use to illustrate your point, but WRT the trinity, and Jesus - how do you go about the verse in Philippians 2 that Cricket quoted in the previous thread? How about in Genesis 1:26 when it says "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness..."

2. Now please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read (and heard) that the watchtower (which I believe is the authority under which JW's reside) have on a number of occasions changed/added to or updated the scriptures? How does that work? Does that not go against Revelation 22:18-19?

I had thought of other things that Ive forgotten now I'll most likely be back

berenice has already answered, but i just thought i'd add a little about the 'Us' in genesis.

We've been shown by John 1:1 that Jesus existed with God when he says "And the word with with God"

So we know that Jesus and the many other angels in heaven existed with God....the Us is them. God was speaking to the other spirit beings existiing with him in heaven. Job 38:4 also tells us that with the creation of the physical world "All the sons of God began shouting in applause"

*Job 38:4*Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth?
...*7*When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

And there is another verse about the one who was the very first spirit creation of God in Psalms 8 which shows that this one (who can only be Jesus) helped his father in the physical creation
22*“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23*From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. ... 30*then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31*being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men

So the 'us' in genesis are the spirit sons of God including Jesus, who resided with him in heaven before the physical world was created.

[Starfish]

This is a very interesting thread. I have a question that I don't think has been covered, regarding witnessing. (I hope its not out of line.) I was just wondering about when JW's go door knocking and talking to people in the street, etc. Who determines where and when you go witnessing? Or does each JW choose this? Is there a certain "quota" of witnessing that you have to do, i.e. a certain number of people you should speak to a year, etc? I apologise if this sounds really stupid or offensive (I don't mean to be), but it is something that I have sometimes wondered.

[alioops]

Im just thinking about replacing every name for God with Jehovah.

Most translations use Lord because He is called the Lord of lords in Revelation, Deuteronomy, Psalm, and 1 Timothy.

In Exodus God calls Himself the I AM.

The prophecy to Mary from the angel said Jesus would be called Emmanuel

I believe that the Maker of everything, including language, can choose to have many names, so why is only the one used by JWs?

[Peg]

I believe that the Maker of everything, including language, can choose to have many names, so why is only the one used by JWs?

Jehovah is his personal name as opposed to the titles he is known by. Much like 'Prince Charles' has the title of Prince, but his personal name is Charles... 'Prince' doesnt really define his personality whereas 'Charles' is personal to him. And if he was only ever known or refered to as 'Prince', it would be hard to distinguish him from the many other 'Princes' who have the same title.

We still sometimes refer to God by his titles such as God, Lord, Father etc. But when you think about it, there are many god's, lords and fathers, so in order to identify whom we are talking about we use his personal name. In hebrew his name is YHWH and it means 'Become' and in hebrew its translated to mean 'He causes to become'

So the importance of his name is in the fact that it identifies him as the creator.