Religion

[Bathsheba]

I agree, I view the Christian cross as a powerful symbol of an incredible act (an innocent sacrificing his life to save the lives of others). I do not worship the cross but the person who died on it.

As for the comment about atrocious acts being done in the name of religion; well... it's easy to stand for nothing. I personally think the world is a better place for religion where millions of people accept rules (like the 10 commandments) that basically don't come naturally to humans. I think it takes more courage to "stand for something" than to stand for nothing.

There is also the saying "ask not what my country can do for me, but what I can do for my country". The core philosophy of most religions is that it is more important to give then take...

I really find it hard to understand people who think that spirituality is 'an optional extra' in life... that they can pick it up and assess it like a product on the supermarket shelf "hmmm, is this product right for me? nah I don't need it, it's got nothing to offer me". I think that attitude is misguided. Does it occur to people that they might as well tell themselves that the laws of physics are 'not for them'. "No, I don't need gravity, it's more convenient to ignore that cliff". For me there is enough evidence that the laws of God are present whether it is convenient or not. Most of us can see and distinguish kind acts and evil acts.... we know the difference yeah? Do we really think we can distance ourselves from the two opposing forces behind all acts?

Anyhow, sorry for my lecture-tone...

still loving this thread girls

[kerry]

Qu for Patch: Do you believe that there is something? or that what we have now is it? I think I'm just curious to know if you are agnostic or completely atheist?. I'm not having a dig, just being nosey. I can understand the negativity to formailsed religion, if not the vehmence, but was just curious about your stance on some form of spirituality or higher being or cycle of life as such?

Bath, very clever way to explain your feelings on people who debunk there being spirituality. I'm a bit different I can understand how people can believe there is nothing or even just question religion. Personally I have always believed there was 'something' higher out there but I have had bouts where I have questioned my religion and my faith. For me the question is just a part of it.... I think its healthy to question things, well at least for me it is. I can also see how some people could debunk the whole thing too... with religion there is a certain element of "the tooth fairy" to the whole concept of g-d. Some people need proof and can't believe things without it, these people then fall into 2 catagories those that believe there is (or might be something) and those who just close off all options that anything is out there. I know at times I have thought that... "if there really is a g-d how could blah blah blah happen" but you know what I think those periods of doubt have made my faith stronger.

[Bathsheba]

I agree Kerry, it is ok and good to question and doubt. I am grateful that my God seems to 'allow' it too!

Something that helps me when I feel seriously doubtful ("if there is a God then why..." etc) is to compare myself to a child and a parent. As a parent you tell your child to do something and when it concerns their safety, for example, you expect compliance without having to explain. Infact a parent is very limited in their ability to explain many things simply because the level of understanding between parent and child is so limited by vocabulary and ability to comprehend etc. I don't think God is able to explain many things because it is simply beyond our ability to understand.

It's like the analogy i saw on a TV program when i was a teenager... forget which one... but imagine if you were a dot on a page... living in a 2 dimensional world in a community of other dots on the paper. Imagine if there was some kind of miracle that one day lifted you up off the page so that you could experience the 3 dimensional world. Imagine being up there, looking down upon your fellow dots... then imagine being lowered back down and trying to explain to the dots around you... for a start there is no word for "up" in dot language.... what do you do?

And what do you say to a child when they demand an explanation to something that is beyond their understanding? You say "because I said so!" don't you? And then you feel bad because you swore you would never say that to your children LOL I think becoming a parent has really given me insight into God's relationship with humanity... it must be pretty frustrating... but I also am more able to understand the notion of unconditional love.

[kerry]

Its funny what we remember that re-inforces our personal beliefs... for me whenever I doubt two poems (?) come to mind... Footprints, the one where during the toughest times in the narrators life there are only 1 set of steps and G-d says its because at that time he carried him and Desiderata... both of those for me remind me that the magnitude of belief, religion really is beyond me. I'm never going to stop questioning but at the same time I doubt I'll ever stop believing. At the lowest points in my life it hasn't been anything physical that has helped me or pulled me through but an outside presence that I have felt with me that has kept me sane.

[Heaven]

I love that footprints poem. I saw a this really clever poem recently, I think it's called Father's Love or something:

You may not know me, but I know everything about you. Psalm 139:1
I know when you sit down and when you rise up. Psalm 139:2
I am familiar with all your ways. Psalm 139:3
Even the very hairs on your head are numbered. Matthew 10:29-31
For you were made in my image. Genesis 1:27
In me you live and move and have your being. Acts 17:28
For you are my offspring. Acts 17:28
I knew you even before you were conceived. Jeremiah 1:4-5
I chose you when I planned creation. Ephesians 1:11-12
You were not a mistake, for all your days are written in my book. Psalm 139:15-16
I determined the exact time of your birth and where you would live. Acts 17:26
You are fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:14
I knit you together in your mother's womb. Psalm 139:13
And brought you forth on the day you were born. Psalm 71:6
I have been misrepresented by those who don't know me. John 8:41-44
I am not distant and angry, but am the complete expression of love. 1 John 4:16
And it is my desire to lavish my love on you. 1 John 3:1
Simply because you are my child and I am your Father. 1 John 3:1
I offer you more than your earthly father ever could. Matthew 7:11
For I am the perfect father. Matthew 5:48
Every good gift that you receive comes from my hand. James 1:17
For I am your provider and I meet all your needs. Matthew 6:31-33
My plan for your future has always been filled with hope. Jeremiah 29:11
Because I love you with an everlasting love. Jeremiah 31:3
My thoughts toward you are countless as the sand on the seashore. Psalms 139:17-18
And I rejoice over you with singing. Zephaniah 3:17
I will never stop doing good to you. Jeremiah 32:40
For you are my treasured possession. Exodus 19:5
I desire to establish you with all my heart and all my soul. Jeremiah 32:41
And I want to show you great and marvelous things. Jeremiah 33:3
If you seek me with all your heart, you will find me. Deuteronomy 4:29
Delight in me and I will give you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37:4
For it is I who gave you those desires. Philippians 2:13
I am able to do more for you than you could possibly imagine. Ephesians 3:20
For I am your greatest encourager. 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17
I am also the Father who comforts you in all your troubles. 2 Corinthians 1:3-4
When you are brokenhearted, I am close to you. Psalm 34:18
As a shepherd carries a lamb, I have carried you close to my heart. Isaiah 40:11
One day I will wipe away every tear from your eyes. Revelation 21:3-4
And I'll take away all the pain you have suffered on this earth. Revelation 21:3-4
I am your Father, and I love you even as I love my son, Jesus. John 17:23
For in Jesus, my love for you is revealed. John 17:26
He is the exact representation of my being. Hebrews 1:3
He came to demonstrate that I am for you, not against you. Romans 8:31
And to tell you that I am not counting your sins. 2 Corinthians 5:18-19
Jesus died so that you and I could be reconciled. 2 Corinthians 5:18-19
His death was the ultimate expression of my love for you. 1 John 4:10
I gave up everything I loved that I might gain your love. Romans 8:31-32
If you receive the gift of my son Jesus, you receive me. 1 John 2:23
And nothing will ever separate you from my love again. Romans 8:38-39
Come home and I'll throw the biggest party heaven has ever seen. Luke 15:7
I have always been Father, and will always be Father. Ephesians 3:14-15
My question is…Will you be my child? John 1:12-13
I am waiting for you. Luke 15:11-32

[Heaven]

Pretty long, sorry.
Omg I am horrified. I have been reading a book 'Not without my sister' about 3 sisters who esceped from the cult 'The Family' and experienced horrific amounts of sexual, physical, and emotional abuse. And this cult is still around, in many countries, including Australia. I just googled it and they have a website. They have pictures of their perverted leader David Berg saying how great he is. He had sex with his own daughters and wrote letters to the members telling them that they should have sex with children from when they are babies. I feel so sad that there are people still in it.
Although I don't agree that these things are done because of religion. Unfortunately there are bad people around, and if we didn't have religion they would just find some other excuse.

[Bathsheba]

You've just reminded me (Kerry) of another misconception that anti-religion people often share: the notion of the believer as "blind follower" only listening to things that support their beliefs. I think this is misguided as nearly all spiritual people I know openly express their times of doubt. I don't see much blind sheep following going on myself.

This thread actually got me Googling C.S Lewis the other day... I came across an anti-religion site reviewing Mere Christianity. It was pretty scathing, but I read it through. Maybe the author had some valid points but despite all the theorising it just didn't touch that place in my heart where my intuition lives. I could have 'technically' agreed with the author but it just didn't feel right. So what you say is the biggest proof of a "higher presence"... it's our intution and anyone or any movement that asks us to deny our intution is just not going to sit right with most people.

ETA: sorry, posted at the same time Sarah...

[kerry]

Sarah there is heaps of stuff around on "the Family". A friend of mine grew up in it. Its pretty harrowing stuff. Unfortunately this is not the only 'cult' that uses religion to further ulterior motives.

How clever is that poem Bath... very impressive to whoever compiled it.
ETA - should be Sarah there not Bath, although I am sure you are impressed to Bath... oh I think I need to log off for the day, 4am bed times and 10am work starts just don't cut it for me.

I'm like you, I read the stuff that disagrees with what I believe and challenges my beliefs. The scientific side of my nods its little head and sees the logic in what is written quite often but I like to have my cake and eat it too so choose to let the scientific aspects of me live in questionable harmony with my spiritual self. Why can't I have both?

[Heaven]

Oh no, I feel so bad for your friend after reading this book

ETA: sorry, posted at the same time Sarah...

huh? Did I miss something??
lol

[kerry]

No you did miss anything, it was just a courtesy from Bath because her post seemed to ignore your post... but really it was just because she was responding to the previous post... ok so no I'm confused.

[Heaven]

Oh ok, lol. I thought she must have written something the same then edited it.
Right, no probs!

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

For me, as others have said, the cross is to celebrate my life eternal through the death of Christ (although I must admit, I do hate that Christ had to die... it's great that He did, because now sins are forgiven, but it's not good that it had to happen this way). But there are more crosses in the Bible - didn't the Jews in Egypt mark the doors with a cross of lamb's blood during the first Passover? The cross speaks of our salvation and the way He rescued His people.

I'm not too keen on the laws of physics, may start ignoring them. Good idea, Bath. sings *I can fly, I can fly, I can flly, I can fly!*

[Nelle]

I reckon science works with faith, it doesn't have to be one vs the other. I mean, I believe that God made everything. Which means God made science. So it's not like he went 'okay, I'll make a tree and umm do I need to use cells?...and ahhh nuts what's the molecular structure of those chlorophyll cells...ah well I'll leave that up to some human to make up.
I believe God made the laws of gravity and relativity and all those other theories we have. I also believe that God's not averse to breaking his rules here and there, which some people call miracles, some coincidence, others try and explain with science.

Sorry if this ramble is totally out of context with everything else you guys are saying.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

You're right, Nelle, God made everything and ignoring part of His creation doesn't mean it will go away! LOL, I should have learnt that one with my mother.

I actually find my faith and everything in the Bible backs up scientific understanding.

[Patch]

Thanks for sharing Patch! As a Christian, we obviously won't see eye to eye on these things but this isn't an exclusive thread.
So, how do you view the world then? Do you believe in any sort of supernatural? What do/will you do when your children ask questions about God?

Oh, and as for the extremist thing, all I can say is - when someone becomes a Christian (or takes on any other faith) they still are capable of acting outside what their belief teaches. Any Christian who hates, judges, treats people harshly, etc, goes against what the bible teaches. I'm sure this is very similar for many other faiths.

I am a believer (for want of a better word) in evolution as opposed to creationism. Seeing as you ask I find the idea of a supernatural being as ridiculous. Just because it can't be proven that God doesn't exist doesn't mean he does. Take for instance this scenario...I believe a 6" purple teapot orbits Pluto.....we have no way to prove that there isn't one so does that mean there is one? Of course not.

I 100% believe with your statement about real "christians" and extremists. There are always idiots amongst every crop. Why is it though that religion seems to want ownership over every day good manners and thinking of others - i.e. "christian values". What exactly is it about these values that makes them "christian"??? Could/should they also not be referred to equally as Islamic values, Buddhist values etc etc...you get my point.

I am not against religion as some replies seem to intimate however I am also for free thinking and not blindly following something because it is written in the bible, koran or whatever other "bible" you follow.

This is a conversation that will *never* be satisfied one way or the other. Of interesting note there have been recent newspaper reports firstly saying their has been evidence allegedly uncovered to prove scientifically that some of the people in the bible existed...that's great and as I said in my first post that merely proves that the people existed not they the events that "happened" actually took place. Another report quoted the Pope as agreeing in many ways with the view of scientists.

To be fair there are *many* different levels of religion and many different types of religion. That in itself should say to you that not everything is correct with this? After all who's God is the real one? Greek Gods are not accepted as being the stuff of myth and yet we continue to believe in the christian God.....*lol*

Flame away!

[Jennifer13]

I am a believer (for want of a better word) in evolution as opposed to creationism.

I too believe in evolution, I just happen to also believe it was the process that was started with creation. Those who don't believe in God seem to suggest that it all started 'somehow' but have no real knowledge of how that is. So I don't think the suggestion that God or a god started the process is any harder to believe.

I don't think the bible discounts evolution, I just believe it was intended for the ppl who lived when it was written firstly and at that time they had no understanding of any of the scientific concepts we do now. It was a simplified outline of the fact that the world came into being because God wanted it to be so.

I like Nelle's references!

As for proving there is a God, prove that there isn't! It can't be done either way.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

How is evolution proved? I'm a scientist - a geneticist, in fact - and have studied this and can see no proof for evolution (without God). On the other hand, the Bible gives the same order of "coming into beingness" as evolution does. Who knows, God may have used evolution. I just cannot see how we got from sludge to humans without divine assistance.

We can prove there is no teapot in orbit around Pluto, btw!

Just a quick Q - do you celebrate Christmas? I don't care how, if it's just trees and presents or if it's Church services and whatnot. Just I have an athiest uncle who's really, really rude about Christianity and every other faith going who then is more than happy to celebrate Christmas and Easter if it means presents and big dinners.

[Nelle]

That's fair enough Patch - evolution's still a theory too. As for the purple teapot, we don't really have any reason to believe that, whereas there are many things on earth and in life that fit the explanation of God.

As for 'Christian' values, maybe that stems from a belief that God created and values those qualities? You're right, those values definitely aren't exclusive to Christians though, thankfully. And there are many Christians who still haven't taken on all those qualities either.

As for blindly following something...when I first met Rans (my dh) I questioned many things he said. When he said 'oh I love that kind of music' I thought, does he really? Can I believe that? Can I trust him? What's his motivation. And all that kind of thing. (Though I didn't do that with everything he said, because I'm not quite that paranoid, lol!) But as we got to know each other, I learned I could trust what he said. So now when he says, Quick, duck! Or, Don't look in the back room today. I trust him.
Am I making sense? I do the same with God. The more I get to know him, the more I find him to be trustworthy, and the more I find my trust validated. It is called 'faith' though! At some stage, I have to make a bit of a blind leap, where I don't know or understand everything. Know though, that if God wasn't trustworthy, I probably would have found out by now.

Sorry if I haven't covered everything, or haven't made sense, I'm in such a rush and haven't had dinner yet!
You make some good points though Patch, these discussions stop me from having a brainless, blind faith. Okay! Better rush!