Mkay, big response coming up. I'm sorry if I sound like I'm constantly saying 'yep, tried that, didn't work'. It's not that I'm not very grateful for your suggestions (I am!) but it really is a bit like that here, I feel like we've tried so much already! I absolutely howled my eyes out putting her down for her second nap today, she was tired and just fought and fought until she was overtired. I've nutted out a few things I want to try though.
Wysiwyg - that's really reassuring, thank you. My instincts tell me to cosleep, it makes waking up for feeds and feeding so much easier, and I just love it. I've also heard that sometimes older siblings sleep picks up a bit when the next one came along, hope that's the case here!
Clover - thank you. DH does all of the night settling...I'd go mad if he didn't. He also has started working really easy short shifts in the early evening, so he's beginning to be home during the day too. He will bounce her to sleep, generally pretty effectively. We've tried letting her wander, because all the lights etc do go off when we try and put her to bed. She will just tantrum that she can't get into the bathroom or will play for hours before whinging and whining. We usually stick to a new routine for at least a month, it's generally pretty obvious what is going to work and what won't by 2-3 weeks.
MadB, I've read you mention this before and I'm really interested to know more, where do I start? DD seemed to be more irritable and restless, maybe had a tummy ache too, when we were giving her painkillers. I'm not sure if it was related or not, but it's worth trying with the diet changes. It's not something we've tried before so definitely worth looking into, seeing as all this madness with her sleep started at 6 months...which is when she started teething, but I also realised last night, was when we started introducing solids.
3LM - I wish that would work with DD, but I don't think it would. I lie with her, stroke her hair and back, pat her bum etc and she gets up, throws herself around, cries, tries to play, tantrums when I don't let her etc. She'd probably squash a feeding DD2 lol
Arte - I think this might be key. She is used to sleeping in our bed, I think getting her her own bed (we'd get her a double) would help a lot. Because at the moment, due to me not being able to get on the floor, I'm putting her to sleep in our bed and DH puts her to sleep in her room. If she had her own bed, either DH or I could put her to sleep there, it would be more constant for her. DH already does all the night settling and usually ends up staying in there and sleeping with her after the second or third wake up, we have another cot mattress on the floor. We've tried all sorts of bedtimes, from 7.30 until 10.30. Her average time she tends to fall asleep has been about 9.30 since birth, but lately she'll cry etc and push that to 10.30 or 11. It generally takes 45 minutes to put her to bed at night, and an hour during the day.
Starangelk - I love that idea. I think you're right, I think she may have had a lot of pain or something, maybe was sick for a while, and had a hard time sleeping, and has now associated bedtime with that. I love the idea of the audiobooks and the projector. I'm going to get onto that ASAP and make it part of this new routine we're trying to nut out. Again, I think getting her a proper double bed will make her feel more at home too. We have special music we listen to, but it's possible she has some negative associations with that too.
Fionas - I'll give her a go with no daytime nap. Generally though, in fact always, she is wrecked after being up for about 3 hours. If she even only has one nap a day, she really struggles and it's just constant whinging and crying.
Novella - Good to know about the beds. I'm definitely not worried about DD rolling out, she's good at getting out of our bed which is taller than her lol. So a nice low frame double should be fine I reckon. Plus we have a spare cot mattress that we got just for putting next to her bed in case she falls out.
Veus - Thanks. I haven't heard of them but I'll look it up. We tried the Brauers homeopathic stuff and didn't find it made a difference unfortunately.
Jakabella - I feel like she's overtired about 30 minutes after a nap honestly! I'm not sure why. We've tried no naps, 3 naps as everything inbetween and there hasn't been a huge difference. She's always changing what works lol. This morning she napped an hour and a half after she woke up and had a really good sleep, then refused to sleep until she had a brief nap at 3...she was exhausted since about 12 but wouldn't sleep.
Olive - I was reading about it last night actually. Definitely having another look into it now.
HotI - that's reassuring. It's good to remember that hey, sometimes we just get by, because we have to. It's good to know there are people put there who have done it before that I can cry to for help lol!
Hope - I spend every day watching for tired signs lol. Even if I go an hour before she shows any signs, we get the same. Like I said before, she seems constantly overtired, she definitely often looks overtired. It's weird.
The other thing I've noticed, I don't know whether it's a problem, but it bothers me.
DD has developed over maybe the last 4 or so months a weird comfort habit. She bites the fur off her teddy. She can get quite OTT with it, have quite a lot of fur in her mouth (bit smaller than a 5c piece) and she'll just bite and bite, then pop her dummy in, then bite and bite, then pop her dummy in. She's started wanting to suck/chew on my hair too, while her dummy is also in her mouth. I find the hair one gross and obviously not convenient, and I just plain don't like it. DH just gets frustrated by the teddy biting, but we don't know how to stop her, why she's doing it, if we even should stop her etc.
OK, we're doing failsafe, more or less. I won't lie to you - it's full on and hard work. Google failsafe and fed up, you'll get the idea.
Looking back, I really think both my kids got worse with food and now we know they're both sensitive to salycilates. Symptoms = frequent waking, irritability, tantrums, etc. Salycilates are in all fruit and most veg and a bunch of other things besides. We can have pears and bananas (as we're ok with amines), and a small range of vegies. This gives you some idea of the restrictions on the diet!
If you really want to explore this, I'd suggest talking to a dietician to plan out what you're going to do. you really need to do it properly - otherwise it just won't work and you'll be wasting your energy. So, best to attempt when you feel ready to take on a project. Possibly this is not this time... depends how motivated you are and how much help you have with meal planning and preparation. It's something that will take months, not a few days or weeks.
It will work out ok - you'll figure out something to get you through with two children, just as you have with one. It just takes time and a bit of trial and error.
ETA - I think my DD has eaten a fair percentage of the fur off her teddy. gross.
Hmm, yeah. It's definitely something we are considering doing, but I'd be kidding myself if I said now was the right time to take on something so significant. Maybe when DD2 is bigger, when I have time and energy to really focus on it.
Well, it's been an hour and counting trying to get DD down to sleep. DH has come home and taken over. I'm so demoralised
PZ - hugs to you. Sometimes, I get sick of doing the dinner/bath/bed thing on my own for days on end and 'cheat' and put on a DVD. DD2 often falls asleep to that and then I just pop her into bed. Again, she might be a bit young. But most kids seem to like In The Night Garden.
Another thing that works with DD2 is finding the right book. I found that if I read ones that were too simple and repetitive, she got to know them really easily and would then keep herself awake being Mrs Pointy Pointy. The feminist in me hates reading her fairy stories about princesses etc. but I find the longer ones much better and they don't have repetitive phrases in them. Depending on what time we start, she often falls asleep after a few pages. Other times might take much, much longer. Again, the key for her is what time we start to try putting her down to bed.
I know you're pretty incapacitated at the moment so can't really take her out but if DH is sometimes around during the day can he take her out for a walk. DD2 really needs physical exercise as she doesn't burn off much energy at home.
I really hope you find something that works. I know how demoralising it is to be spending all that time trying to get a little one to sleep.
pz I wish there was something I could do to help more
Could she still be hungry when you're putting her to sleep? I found when dd was super averse to going to sleep I offered some food (something easy like.yoghurt, toddler food, etc) and then tried again straight after.
Could you start asking her if she wants to go to sleep? I found dd also responded better to that when I asked, even if she said no I would wait 5-10mins and if she was clearly tired and stroppy I'd say something like "I think you're tired, let's go have sleepy time" or even start saying sleep time is imminent? Perhaps she doesn't like things sprung on her? could she be bored and giving what look like tired signs but she's actually bored and doesn't want to sleep?
Hey PZ. I have a suggestion that you may want to try which worked for us. It sounds similar to CIO but is actually very different. You know how in CIO you put them in their cot and leave them for increasing amounts of time while they cry (grizzle etc.)? Well what we did was pop DS in the cot and cuddle or pat him till he was happy. Then I would take off my hand for a few seconds and before he could start to cry, I would start to pat/cuddle again. Then I would do it again but would slightly increase the time that I wasn't cuddling/patting etc. The key is to always get back to them before they cry or get upset. You can then create an anticipation in them that you will be coming back, and you can build up the time that you are away from them. If your DD already has a strong aversion to the cot (e.g. you can't put her down at all) then I would start doing this in more of a neutral/positive territory like your bed, or a new bed. While you are still in the new stages of doing this, you can stay in their room and just keep busy with folding nappies, or something so you are not totally focused on them but they know you are still around, making sure you give them some gentle (not too exciting) encouragement every now and then that you are still around, like humming. Over time you can build them up to a self-settling state but using a totally different psychological mechanism than CIO. This way, they learn to believe you will be coming back and they don't need to cry to have you return. Once DS was about 2 he was even really good at self settling in other people's houses because he could trust that when I said I would come back and check, that I would. Anyway, it may be something to try Hope this helps.
Pz, RE: hair/fluff issue - my friend is going through something similar with her almost 9 year old DD.
Her DD uses hair for comfort. Has done since she was only a few months old. Its at the point now that she hardly has any hair on her head, because she twirls so excessively & it just breaks. She's also a thumb sucker.
For her its stress/anxiety & habit. Every time her stress levels are up, the habit gets worse. When her stress levels are down, her hair starts to grow back in again. She didn't start the twirling of her own hair til she was about 3, but needed hair in her hand for comfort from a very early age. She was taking it from brushes at about your DD's age. Finding it on the floor before that.
Its not something I'd get too worried about for now. But I'd keep an eye on it & try to deter when you can, just to avoid it turning into a bigger problem. So maybe hide that teddy & keep your hair tied back?
Could you being stressed about everything be rubbing off on her? Affecting sleep as well as causing her new habits? Not saying you're stressing her out, but you have a lot going on, & have for a while now & she maybe picking up on that?
Last edited by ~clover~; November 6th, 2012 at 10:46 PM.
once dd was used to falling asleep in her bed, we did a similar thing to krysalyss. before that i(or dh) was sitting by her bed until she went to sleep and we would be there for hours every night and it was getting longer.
I did similar to krysalyss - I told DD that the rule was she had to stay in bed and stay quiet and that if she didn't, then in the morning she would face a consequence. For her it is not being able to watch tv or have milk at breakfast. That was her currency.
Anyway the bit similar is that I'd put her into bed, ask "what's the rule?" And she'd say "stay in bed and stay quiet" and I'd say "yep I'll come back and check on you in one minute. See if you can stay in bed and quiet til then!" And I'd walk to the door and turn around and say "well done, you stayed in bed and quiet, excellent! I love it when you listen to mummy" or similar effusive praise.
Then I'd say "I'll come back and check in you in another minute" then I'd close the door or step around the corner out of sight and then reappear straight away, hopefully to say "well done etc" again.
Then you repeat with longer intervals, two minutes, five minute etc. I didn't time it exactly, just stayed away a bit longer each time.
If she got out of bed, I'd go put her back in and start all over again - twice. On the third time, I'd say "Last chance DD. if you get out of bed again, no milk and TV in the morning. Last chance." And if she did, then it's the consequence in the morning.
It took her about a week. The first few days were terrible - we did this for day sleep and night time and when I was putting her down for her nap, it was another chance for her to have milk and tv in the afternoon. But for the first few days she went without, which was awful, until she got the hang of it.
The good thing now is like the others say, she can self settle really quickly and easily, here and other places. I rarely have to enforce the consequence any more - can't remember when I last did - and she goes to sleep easily and happily. Sometimes I still have to remind her if she's a bit excitable at bed time "what's the rule?" And she says "stay bed stay quiet!" And that settles her down.
Just another thing you could try. We started with DD when she was about 18mths and I had DS who was 2mths. We'd had enough of the sleep fights.
DD1 was a shocking sleeper during the day and a terrible settler at night when DD2 came along and for the first couple of weeks it was ok while DD2 was still in that lovely sleepy stage. Then it was hell trying to settle two bad sleepers. So after weeks or a couple of months (not sure now, a distant memory I'm trying my best to block out!!) I just gave up. DD1 had never been more than a cat napper anyway, as much as she needed more, so we just did quiet time. DD2 lived on me anyway for the first 18 months so she would get snippets of sleep on my shoulder, and DD1 slept maybe half the time. I also did a LOT of driving and a fair bit of pram pushing because it was the only way I could be guaranteed of getting both monsters, er girls, asleep.
Try not to stress too much. The close age gap does make it much harder in the earlier days (I can say this from experience now that I'm dealing with a bigger age gap this time around) but throwing out any idea of schedules or routines for the first few months will make it far less stressful for you. And hey, you never know but you could get a perfect sleepy baby this time around who is a breeze to settle, so then you're just dealing with DD1.
Have you thought about getting rid of her dummy? I found with ds1 that he would wake up constantly looking for his dummy. When we got rid of it he seemed to sleep better.
The thing with a bigger bed is that you can also make it a more peaceful thing cause you can pop into bed with her, read a book (or 3), cuddle while she has a bottle and hopefully help her create a more positive association with bed.
I hope that something works for you and soon. I wish there was more I could say. Big
No real advice, just what worked for us at various stages. We cut out salicytes for a few weeks in the middle of all this, but didn't notice any difference.
When DS was taking at least 1 1/2 hours to fall asleep (obviously tired, falling asleep for a few seconds then waking himself up by shaking his head) we'd try and break the cycle by taking him outside, he'd check things out quietly for a while then we'd go back to rocking/bfeeding to sleep in his room.
If he was completely overtired and hyper and just rolling around in my arms or trying to climb off me, I'd take him to another room and we'd have a chat about how tired Mama was, and how he was much happier when he'd had a sleep and how in a few hours we'd all be cuddled in bed together anyway (we'd co-sleep from first wake up) and we'd talk about his feelings, and then take him to the living room so he could romp for a little while then try sleeping again.
If we really really really couldn't face 2 hours of putting him to sleep, we'd put a mattress in the living room and then chuck on a movie/episodes that we didn't mind if he vaguely watched (either something for kids, or usually grand designs) and eat popcorn until he collapsed. Then all sleep in the living room.
We also went back to full time bed sharing (plus we were moving and we sold his cot, lol) and he fell asleep a lot quicker when he was consistently in our bed. Got to the point where he'd pointedly roll away from me and fall asleep on the other side of the bed. I also made a big point of making sure he ran around outside a lot, inside activity didn't seem to make a difference to his sleep (if he spent the day running up and down the hallway or reading books) but outside made a HUGE difference. And we always gave him yoghurt after dinner and that seemed to help too.
We're at the stage now where he is in his own bed in his own room, and I lie next to him until he's sleepy (10-15min) then we say goodnight and he's happy for me to leave. Again, sometimes he pointedly rolls away from me, lol. He usually sleep 10 hours a night, if he wakes up, we co-sleep.
When I am out, dd will fall asleep during the day. If we are at home or the boys are with us she doesn't want to sleep in the day time.
I have given up trying to make her go to sleep in the day. I spent the last few weeks with her taking upto 90mins to get to sleep.
We would go into the bedroom, play alittle, read 2 books, have a feed when I would say sleepy time. But often she would get up and try play around. So every few mins I would lie her down and say sleepy time. After ages of this she would go to sleep randomly.
I got very sick of it and found I resented "sleepy time" as I needed to be doing things.
I know your preggy and probably wanting a day sleep too. Hope you can sort something that works for you.
I would suggest starting to get her to sleep in 1 place before baby comes. The more settled her routine the more secure she will feel.
Need suggestions for DD's sleep
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pz I wish there was something I could do to help more 
could she be bored and giving what look like tired signs but she's actually bored and doesn't want to sleep?
Hope this helps.
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