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Thread: Alternatives to immunisations

  1. #19

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    Janie, I'm certainly starting to lean that way too. Alister is due for his next lot of vaccs and I am seriously considering not getting them done.

    Michael, is there any harm in stopping vacc'ing if they have already had some? I would like to continue with the Hep B one though. and I would love a copy of your schedule too please


  2. #20

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    I'd be very interested in your schedule Michael

  3. #21

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    Michael, I know it can very greatly, but do you have any info about how long the Hep B antibodies hang around after immunising children? It's one of the ones I'm most sceptical about, and I need some info on it. I will do some research into it, but would interested in your thoughts.

  4. #22

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    Okay. I'm at work, and have an admission coming in, but otherwise it's quiet, so I'll do some research and when I get a sec, post my own personal recommended schedule.

    As far as Hep B is concerned, I believe they are currently recommending an adulthood booster, so it only lasts until late teens. But I'll try and find something definitive for you.

  5. #23

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    This is from the US Center for Disease Control:

    Antibody Response to Vaccination
    Licensed formulations for both vaccines produce high (>95%) rates of protective antibody (anti-HBs >10 mIU/mL) when the complete series is administered in different schedules to infants, juveniles, and adults aged <40 years ([URL="http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/00033405.htm"]5[/URL]). Among healthy adults, 30%--50% develop a protective antibody response after the first vaccine dose, 75% after the second dose, and >95% after the third dose ([URL="http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/00033405.htm"]5[/URL]--9). Increasing the interval between the first and second dose of vaccine has little effect on immunogenicity or final antibody titer, although data are limited regarding intervals >2 months among adults ([URL="http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/00033405.htm"]5[/URL],8). The third dose confers the maximum rate of seroprotection; it primarily acts as a booster and confers optimal long-term protection through the induction of maximum immune memory ([URL="http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/00033405.htm"]5[/URL],9). Both licensed vaccines administered on a 0-, 1-, and 6-month schedule produce a >95% final seroprotection rate among adolescents and healthy young adults, and studies indicate that vaccination of adolescents and adults on a 0-, 2-, and 4-month, and adolescents on a 0-,12-, and 24-month schedule, achieved final seroprotection rates similar to the 0-, 1-, and 6-month schedule (8--10). In addition, a 2-dose vaccination series using Recombivax HB? at the adult dosage has been demonstrated among adolescents aged 11--15 years to produce protective antibody responses equivalent to that of the 3-dose series, although the long-term protection afforded from this schedule is not known (8,[URL="http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4912a5.htm"]11[/URL]).
    The duration of vaccine-induced antibody and protection from hepatitis B virus (HBV) infection has been evaluated among vaccinated infants, juveniles, and adults ([URL="http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/00033405.htm"]5[/URL],12--14). Studies indicate that although loss of detectable anti-HBs has ranged from 13% to 60% by 9--15 years after vaccination, immune memory provides protection from HBV infection, and protection remains intact for >15 years, the longest period for which follow-up data are available ([URL="http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/00033405.htm"]5[/URL],12--14). Because of the long duration of protection afforded by the 3-dose vaccine series, booster doses of vaccine are not needed among vaccinated immunocompetent juveniles or adults.
    So, in the US, they only track for 15 years, but believe that there is sufficient immunity left at the 15 year mark not to recommend a booster.

  6. #24

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    As I don't have kids yet I haven't really looked in the reasons for not vaccinating.

    However as someone with an (almost) PhD in microbiology, the knowledge I have of the diseases is pretty much enough to make me choose to vaccinate, especially considering the risk of re-emergence of diseases previously vaccinated for.

    That said, when the time arises, I will take the time to research the "don't vaccinate" side of things and make my decision then.

  7. #25

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    Thanks so much for that Michael.

  8. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shannon View Post
    Kate, what costs are incurred with the vaccination schedule for those who do vaccinate? I don't see that a vaccinating family incurs any further expense over a conscientiously objecting family - and infact if those who choose not to vaccinate go the homeopathic route, they would incur more costs.

    (Just so you know, I vaccinate, I believe in the societal benefits of mass vaccinations. I was just curious of your objection.)
    I don't have a problem with people not immunising themselves or their children, if that is their choice. I often do not agree with the medical field or the government, and if i was not a proponent of their service, i would also not claim the 'benefit' of that service.

    There are costs involved in getting immunised in terms of transport and time. Immunising one child can also assist in preventing disease in children that are not yet of age to be immunised.

    I see the government payment as assisting the parents who have gone through the immunisation process, in terms of their time and also in assisting in reducing the spread of the diseases by limiting the number of children who may be infected (due to being immunised).

    Those who choose not to immunise do not incur the time/transport costs of each immunisation.

    Homeopathic vaccination is not recognised by the government or science(as far as i am aware) as viable immunisation. I understand that this may require additional funds, and this is part of the choice that people make.

    That is my point of view, anyway.

    Kate

  9. #27

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    I thought the immunisation payment was incentive to immunise, but obviously thats not the case, however when it first came out I'm fairly certain that was the motive.

  10. #28

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    It was the motive to encourage immunisation, but it was also the other part of the Maternity Allowance (now the Baby Bonus). So regardless of whether you chose to immunise or not, you should still be entitled to it as your other part of the Maternity Allowance.

  11. #29

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    DISCLAIMER: This information is based on my own personal research, as a parent. It is not health advice, nor is it a recommendation. You should seek advice from a trusted health professional before making any decisions about immunisation for yourself or your child. This information is in no way endorsed by my employer, NSW Health, and I am posting as a parent and a member of the public, and not in my capacity as a nurse.

    Okay, Schmickers' Immunisation Schedule, Version 1.0


    First of all, a lot of this is being cobbled together from notes - both paper notes, and mental ones. It is all based on either our own research, or advice from a trusted paediatrician, but the standard disclaimer applies - this is my own personal opinion, not as a nurse, but as a parent, and while you are free to do with it as you want, I am not responsible for the consequences, should there be any apart from having happy, healthy children. So please, don't sue me.

    First, for reference, the current Australian National Immunisation Program Schedule:

    Birth

    • Hepatitis B (hepB) [See [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#footnote-a"]footnote a[/URL]]

    2 months

    • Hepatitis B (hepB) [See [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#footnote-b"]footnote b[/URL]]
    • Diphtheria, tetanus and whooping cough (acellular pertussis) (DTPa)
    • Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib) [See [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#footnote-c"]footnotes c & d[/URL]]
    • Polio (inactivated poliomyelitis IPV)
    • Pneumococcal conjugate (7vPCV)
    • Rotavirus

    [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#top"]Top of page[/URL]

    4 months

    • Hepatitis B (hepB) [See [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#footnote-b"]footnote b[/URL]]
    • Diphtheria, tetanus and whooping cough (acellular pertussis (DTPa)
    • Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib) [See [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#footnote-c"]footnotes c & d[/URL]]
    • Polio (inactivated poliomyelitis IPV)
    • Pneumococcal conjugate (7vPCV)
    • Rotavirus

    [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#top"]Top of page[/URL]

    6 months

    • Hepatitis B (hepB) [See [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#footnote-b"]footnote b[/URL]]
    • Diphtheria, tetanus and whooping cough (acellular pertussis (DTPa)
    • Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib) [See [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#footnote-c"]footnote c][/URL]
    • Polio (inactivated poliomyelitis) (IPV)
    • Pneumococcal conjugate (7vPCV) [See [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#footnote-e"]footnote e[/URL]]
    • Rotavirus [See [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#footnote-j"]footnote j[/URL]]

    [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#top"]Top of page[/URL]

    12 months

    • Hepatitis B (hepB) [See [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#footnote-b"]footnote b[/URL]]
    • Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib) [See[URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/footnote-d"]footnote d[/URL]]
    • Measles, mumps and German measles (rubella) (MMR)
    • Meningococcal C (MenCCV)

    [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#top"]Top of page[/URL]

    12-24 months

    • Hepatitis A (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children in high risk areas) [See [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#footnote-f"]footnote f[/URL]]

    [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#top"]Top of page[/URL]

    18 months

    • Chickenpox (varicella) (VZV)

    [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#top"]Top of page[/URL]

    18-24 months

    • Pneumococcal polysaccharide (23vPPV) (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children in high risk areas) [See [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#footnote-g"]footnote g[/URL]]
    • Hepatitis A (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children in high risk areas)

    [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#top"]Top of page[/URL]

    4 years

    • Diphtheria, tetanus and whooping cough (acellular pertussis) (DTPa)
    • Measles, mumps and German measles (rubella) (MMR)
    • Polio (inactivated poliomyelitis) (IPV)

    [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#top"]Top of page[/URL]

    10-13 years

    • Hepatitis B
    • Chickenpox (varicella) (VZV) [See [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#footnote-h"]footnote h[/URL]]

    [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#top"]Top of page[/URL]

    12-18 years (School based program)

    • Human Papillomavirus (HPV) [See [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#footnote-h"]footnote k[/URL]]

    [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#top"]Top of page[/URL]

    12-26 years (Community based program)

    • Human Papillomavirus (HPV) [See[URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#footnote-h"] footnote l[/URL]]

    [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#top"]Top of page[/URL]

    15-17 years

    • Diphtheria, tetanus and whooping cough (acellular pertussis) (dTPa)

    [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#top"]Top of page[/URL]

    15-49 years

    • Influenza (flu) (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who are medically at-risk)
    • Pneumococcal polysaccharide (23vPPV) (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who are medically at-risk)

    [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#top"]Top of page[/URL]

    50 years and over

    • Influenza (flu) (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people)
    • Pneumococcal polysaccharide (23vPPV) (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people)

    [URL="http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips#top"]Top of page[/URL]

    65 years and over

    • Influenza (flu)
    • Pneumococcal polysaccharide (23vPPV)
    Source: [URL]http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/nips[/URL], accessed 20th January 2008

    Now, Michael's Immunisation Schedule.

    Unlike the NIPS, I would like our schedule to be more accommodating to the needs of the individual child. Accordingly, I have separated the schedule out into three broad groups, which I term "Low Risk", "High Risk", and "Special Needs".
    The reason that I stratify children in this way is because, at the age groups we are examining, especially in the pre-school age groups, there are marked differences in the needs of families who have children who attend child care, or who have children in this age group who have siblings or other close social contacts who attend child care or school, and those families who do not. As a result, I believe it is justifiable to be more aggressive in our preventative treatment of children who are exposed to an increased risk of contracting the more serious vaccine-preventable diseases.

    LOW RISK
    Birth:
    None

    2 Months:
    None

    4 Months:
    None

    6 Months:
    None

    12 Months:
    None

    2-3 Years:
    Tetanus* / Diptheria-Tetanus-Pertussis (DTPa)

    4 Years / Before School:
    Haemophilus Influenzae Type B (HIB)
    Meningococcal
    Pertussis (Whooping Cough)* / Diptheria-Tetanus-Pertussis (DTPa)

    High School:
    Varicella (Chicken Pox) (Only children who have not previously been infected)

    NOTES:
    Children in low-risk social situations are unlikely to contract vaccine preventable diseases during infancy. The incidence of serious side effects for most infant vaccine-preventable diseases is low, and was continuing to reduce before the introduction of global immunisation programs. As a result, as long as our children remain in a "low risk" group - that is, no signficant family or social contacts who are in childcare, under parental supervision during play - we believe the risks inherent in giving immunisations before the age of 2 (that is, the need to give multiple doses to achieve a good immunological response) are not warranted. Instead, we intend to give them single doses at a later age, when their immune systems are mature enough to mount a sufficient immune response after one exposure.

    The government recommends the chicken pox vaccine (varicella) at the age of 18 months. While chicken pox is known to very rarely cause an inflammation of the lining of the brain, the varicella vaccine is very new and not extensively used. We suggest that it be withheld until high shcool age, and only given to those children who have not previously been infected with chicken pox, as the symptoms of chicken pox become worse as a person becomes older.

    Certain immunisations recommended by the government are not included in this schedule. This is because we believe that the risks associated with these immunisations do not outweigh the likelihood of contracting the disease and the associated risk factors if the disease is contracted. These include:

    Hepatitis B - this vaccine is now given to all children, even though hepatitis B is spread through contact with infected body fluids. We believe children in a low risk group are not at risk of exposure to hepatitis B and thus, do not require this vaccination.

    Pneumococcal Conjugate - this virus can result in meningeal infections, such as meningitis or meningococcal sepsis, but requires close contact with infected children and, during infancy, requires repeated boosters to attain a good immunological response. While giving it at the age of 2-3 would be an option, the outcomes for children who are infected are considerably better after the age of 2, so we do not include it on our schedule.

    Polio - the only cases of this disease in decades have been as a result of exposure by immunocompromised people to the vaccine itself! Polio no longer exists in Australia.

    Rotavirus - rotavirus causes serious dehydration only in children under the age of six months. It is spread by faecal contamination from children who are infected. Before the age of six months, children are not independently mobile, so it is generally not difficult to prevent rotavirus infection in the low-risk group.

    Measles-Mumps-Rubella - Of these three diseases, measles is the most concerning, as it does rarely cause an inflammation of the brain in some children that can lead to long-term complications. However, there is a mounting body of anecdotal evidence that suggests a link between immunisations in general, and the MMR immunisation in particular, and the onset of autism. Recently, immunisatio researchers have acknowledged this link, and have called for more research in order to find the cause. As a result, we suggest that the use of the MMR should be considered with caution. If it is decided that it be used, we think some consideration should be given to delaying it from 12 months to 2-3 years, or older, in order that the requirement for a second booster (normally given at 4 years) can be omitted.

    * Tetanus - In an ideal world, we would give a single tetanus booster injection by itself once the child begins walking, as there becomes a risk of a penetrating injury to the feet once the child becomes mobile which could result in tetanus. However, tetanus for children is only available as part of the diptheria-tetanus-pertussis vaccine. We do not believe immunisation for diptheria is required in this country, as it does not exist, and vaccination for pertussis is not warranted at this age in children in this risk group, as whooping cough requires extensive contact with ill children (approximately three to four hours of close contact) to be spread.

    * Pertussis - See the note for tetanus, above. We hold pertussis until this age so that only one dose is required to confer a good immunological response, and once the child enters school and has unsupervised play with potentially sick children, the chances of contracting pertussis are increased.

    HIGH RISK

    Birth:
    None

    2 Months:
    Pertussis (Whooping Cough)* / Diptheria-Tetanus-Pertussis (DTPa)
    Haemophilus Influenzae Type B (HIB)
    Pneumococcal Conjugate
    Rotavirus (if in childcare before 6 months)

    4 Months:
    Pertussis (Whooping Cough)* / Diptheria-Tetanus-Pertussis (DTPa)
    Haemophilus Influenzae Type B (HIB)
    Pneumococcal Conjugate
    Rotavirus (if in childcare before 6 months)

    6 Months:
    Pertussis (Whooping Cough)* / Diptheria-Tetanus-Pertussis (DTPa)
    Haemophilus Influenzae Type B (HIB)
    Pneumococcal Conjugate
    Rotavirus (if in childcare before 6 months)

    12 Months:
    Haemophilus Influenzae Type B (HIB)
    Meningococcal

    2 Years:
    Tetanus* / Diptheria-Tetanus-Pertussis (DTPa)

    4 Years / Before School:
    Pertussis (Whooping Cough)* / Diptheria-Tetanus-Pertussis (DTPa)

    High School:
    Varicella (Chicken Pox) (Only children who have not previously been infected)

    NOTES:
    Children who are in child care or day care spend extensive periods of time mixing with other children without parental supervision. As a result, there is an increased potential for children in this group to contract vaccine-preventable diseases at a young age. This also applies to children who have siblings, as sibling also spend extensive amounts of time together.

    The government recommends the chicken pox vaccine (varicella) at the age of 18 months. While chicken pox is known to very rarely cause an inflammation of the lining of the brain, the varicella vaccine is very new and not extensively used. We suggest that it be withheld until high shcool age, and only given to those children who have not previously been infected with chicken pox, as the symptoms of chicken pox become worse as a person becomes older.

    Certain immunisations recommended by the government are not included in this schedule. This is because we believe that the risks associated with these immunisations do not outweigh the likelihood of contracting the disease and the associated risk factors if the disease is contracted. These include:

    Hepatitis B - this vaccine is now given to all children, even though hepatitis B is spread through contact with infected body fluids. We believe children in a low risk group are not at risk of exposure to hepatitis B and thus, do not require this vaccination.

    Polio - the only cases of this disease in decades have been as a result of exposure by immunocompromised people to the vaccine itself! Polio no longer exists in Australia.

    Rotavirus - rotavirus causes serious dehydration only in children under the age of six months. It is spread by faecal contamination from children who are infected. Before the age of six months, children are not independently mobile, so it is generally not difficult to prevent rotavirus infection, unless they are in childcare at this age. If so, the rotavirus immunisation may be warranted.

    Measles-Mumps-Rubella - Of these three diseases, measles is the most concerning, as it does rarely cause an inflammation of the brain in some children that can lead to long-term complications. However, there is a mounting body of anecdotal evidence that suggests a link between immunisations in general, and the MMR immunisation in particular, and the onset of autism. Recently, immunisatio researchers have acknowledged this link, and have called for more research in order to find the cause. As a result, we suggest that the use of the MMR should be considered with caution. If it is decided that it be used, we think some consideration should be given to delaying it from 12 months to 2-3 years, or older, in order that the requirement for a second booster (normally given at 4 years) can be omitted.

    SPECIAL NEEDS

    Birth:
    Hepatitis B (Children born into social environments where there is a high risk of body fluid contamination or injury or transmission from infected social contacts)

    2 Months:
    Hepatitis B (Children born into social environments where there is a high risk of body fluid contamination or injury or transmission from infected social contacts)

    4 Months:
    Hepatitis B (Children born into social environments where there is a high risk of body fluid contamination or injury or transmission from infected social contacts)

    6 Months:
    Hepatitis B (Children born into social environments where there is a high risk of body fluid contamination or injury or transmission from infected social contacts) OR AT 12 MONTHS

    12 Months:
    Hepatitis B (Children born into social environments where there is a high risk of body fluid contamination or injury or transmission from infected social contacts) OR AT SIX MONTHS

    2 Years:
    Hepatitis A (Children living in social environments where there is a high risk of body fluid contamination or injury or transmission from infected social contacts)

    4 Years / Before School:
    Mumps* / Measles Mumps Rubella (MMR) (Males Only)

    High School:
    Human Papilloma Virus ("Cervical Cancer Vaccine", HPV) (Females Only)
    Rubella* / Measles Mumps Rubella (MMR) (Females who have no immunity to rubella only)

    Measles-Mumps-Rubella - see notes regarding the MMR vaccine above. Of these diseases, two are of interest to specific groups. Mumps is generally a short-lived disease with few serious side effects, for females. For males, however, there is a rare side effect of orchitis, or inflammation of the testes, that can result in infertility later in life due to scarring. Ideally, if it were possible, we would immunise males only, and imminuse them specifically for mumps, as opposed to the MMR combination. We suggest waiting until before school, as at school, the risk of transmission increases and the immune system is mature enough that a single dose of the MMR is usually sufficient to provoke a good immunological response.

    For females, rubella (german measles) is a concern, as, if contracted during pregnany, it can cause fetal abnormalities. However, this is only a concern for girls and women of childbearing age. Ideally, if it were possible, we would immunise females only, and immunise them specifically for rubella, as opposed to the MMR combination. We see no reason to give this immunisation any earlier than high school / the commencement of menstruation, for the obvious reason that pre-pubescent girls are unlikely to fall pregnant.

    Human Papilloma Virus ("Cervical Cancer Vaccine", HPV) - while this is a new vaccine, and so little information is known about it's long-term use, by the time it is given the immune system is fully matured. Given that cervical cancer is insidious, often fatal, and difficult to detect, we have no problems in recommending it's use at this age.

    Whew! Now I have sore fingers...
    Last edited by Schmickers; July 20th, 2010 at 09:36 PM.

  12. #30

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    Wow, thank you so much Michael, that's fantastic. I really appreciate you going to so much trouble to post that info for us.

  13. #31

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    I am finding this very interesting.. I never thought twice about immunising my children but since friday (dd had a reaction to the Rotavirus vac) I am seriously rethinking things.,,

  14. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherie View Post
    It was the motive to encourage immunisation, but it was also the other part of the Maternity Allowance (now the Baby Bonus). So regardless of whether you chose to immunise or not, you should still be entitled to it as your other part of the Maternity Allowance.
    I'm so confused LOL! I would have thought that seeing as the baby bonus is now even higher than the maternity allowance was it would mean that those who didn't immunise shouldn't be entitled to it. I think they need to change the name of it if it is given regardless of immunisation or not because I don't see the point in having it, not when the immunisation itself is free anyway *shrug* Sorry to go OT... back to it

  15. #33

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    Yeah, but if they change the name of it, then people won't be encouraged to immunise quite as much - you know, people might think 'ahhh can't be bothered taking bub down, but I'd better cos we get the payment if we stay on schedule'. You know? Is that too conspiracy theory of me?

    Personally I wonder if the payment shouldn't be an 'informed choice' payment, where it gets given either way but when the parent has learned about vaccines, how they work, what's in them, the social benefits, any risks, what to do in case of reaction - balanced info - not to make people lean a certain way, but just to inform them.
    Like conscientious objectors have to have a chat with their GP, it should be conditional on an info session, or spiel from a GP or health nurse.

    Just my (off topic) thought for the day.

  16. #34

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    It pretty much is, Nelle, in that to register as a conscientious objector, you have to get a form signed by your GP stating that they have explained the pros and cons of immunisation to you. Of course, depending on the GP, it will probably be a pretty one-sided explanation...

  17. #35

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    Yeah, I was saying (not very well! ) that I think (in my never humble opinion) that everyone should have to get the money conditional on being informed, not just conscientious objectors.

  18. #36

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    I like your idea Nelle. I think what Michael is trying to say though, that the info given is very one-sided, so it's a bit of a pointless excerise IYKWIM?

    I think I'm too tired to explain myself very well tonight!

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