Do You Think Childhood Vaccinations Should Be Compulsory?

[slyder]

Keike no they do not have the same level as hygeine as we do here in Australia. Due to sanitation, water etc etc.

WTF?

You've spent time in Samoa I take it?

[Inanna]

No I haven't Slyder. A close friend & her family did. Her son died of meningicoccal there. She was an RN at the hospital.
Below is taken from the Aust website as safety precautions in travelling to Samoa. Just so we can be clear. I don't blow air out of my bottom Slyder I know what I am talking about.

Health Issues
Pandemic (H1N1) 2009 has spread throughout the world. The World Health Organization (WHO) provides useful information for individuals and travellers on its website. For further information and advice to Australians, including on possible quarantine measures overseas, see our travel bulletin on Pandemic (H1N1) 2009.
We strongly recommend that you take out comprehensive travel insurance that will cover any overseas medical costs, including medical evacuation, before you depart. Confirm that your insurance covers you for the whole time you'll be away and check what circumstances and activities are not included in your policy. Remember, regardless of how healthy and fit you are, if you can't afford travel insurance, you can't afford to travel. The Australian Government will not pay for a traveller's medical expenses overseas or medical evacuation costs.
Your doctor or travel clinic is the best source of information about preventive measures, immunisations (including booster doses of childhood vaccinations) and disease outbreaks overseas. The World Health Organization (WHO) provides information for travellers and our Travelling Well brochure also provides useful tips for travelling with medicines and staying healthy while overseas.
Hospital and medical facilities are limited and medical evacuation may be required in serious cases. To receive medical services you may be required to pay in advance and provide a deposit if hospitalised. Medical evacuation by air ambulance to Australia or New Zealand is extremely expensive. Evacuations using commercial airlines may be delayed during June and November to January when flights are often heavily booked.
There are no hyperbaric chambers on any of the islands for treatment of scuba diving related injuries. Serious cases of decompression sickness are evacuated to the nearest treatment centre in Suva, Fiji, or Auckland, New Zealand. All registered dive companies carry basic treatment equipment to meet PADI standards.
Outbreaks of the mosquito-borne illness dengue fever occur. It is strongly recommended you take precautions against being bitten by mosquitoes, including using insect repellent. For further information on dengue fever see the World Health Organization's factsheet.
Water-borne, food-borne and other infectious diseases (including typhoid, hepatitis, filariasis and tuberculosis) occur, with more serious outbreaks from time to time. We encourage you to consider having vaccinations before travelling. We advise you to boil all drinking water or drink bottled water, and avoid ice cubes and raw and undercooked food. Seek medical advice if you have a fever or are suffering from diarrhoea.
The World Organisation for Animal Health (OIE) has confirmed cases of avian influenza in birds in a number of countries throughout the world. For a list of these countries, visit the OIE website. For information on our advice to Australians on how to reduce the risk of infection and on Australian Government precautions see our travel bulletin on

[slyder]

What's clear is that:

1. That statement has nothing to do with the personal hygeine standards of Samoans.
2. Water borne and mosquito borne diseases are known to be common through the Pacific, and many other parts of the world. Australia has its share of weird diseases too which can be acquired by mosquitos and even from our soil. Many regional communities are on permanent boil water alerts.
3. Scratch the surface, and it isn't hard to find uneducated, Westernised opinions of other cultures.

[Inanna]

Hang on a second Slyder. Nobody in this thread has been bigoted. Not that I can see. Keike asked a very valid question in regard to disease in third world country.

This IS NOT about the personal hygeine standards of Samoans. Where did you get that from???? This is about the state of the country's water supply, what disease is prevalent, what health care standards there are.

Samoa has a high level of meningicoccal due to it's water issues. It has typhus. It has cholera and diptheria. Give me a break Slyder and don't make this about something it's not. Nobody is denigrating Samoa! FFS we are saying that the standard in hygeine (meaning in this regard to sanitation issues, availability of high quality contagium free water, health care etc) is an issue as to why disease is more prevalent in Samoa and other third world countries.

I totally agree it's not hard to find bigoted opinion of other cultures - but if that's what you believe you see in this thread I think you need to step back and actually ask some questions of those you are finding uneducated and bigoted. Don't fire off your guns without asking some questions first.

I am not a bigot. I just happen to know something about Samoa and it'shealth issues due to having a friendship with a fellow colleague who worked there and lost her son there.

[RockinSAHD]

If there is any huge mutation of a disease, it would be where the status quo has been unnaturally or dramatically changed that requires that disease to also change as a direct result. If there was to be a mutation that was natural (in which it occurred because it was left to its own devices) then the human immune system would also adapt in kind. But all (and you can look this up - I've downloaded it from BMJ but can't find where I've saved it ATT) of the known mutations at this time are found ONLY in those immunised. What you are saying is "basic stuff" isn't actually supported by the evidence.

I do agree with your statement that human immune systems adapt over time and that this is the best way but for this process to happen people have to die, in large numbers. Our natural immunity has cost millions of lives. I am interested to see your article, I tried to search it but didn't know where to begin. You seem to be telling me that diseases mutating only and have only-ever-happened in immunised humans?

I talk down to your comments because often they defy my reality. I shouldn't though and I would like to see the evidence. Your comments blow my mind and they are far, far out from where I live. I don't mean to be as offensive as I come across and you might be suprised at how open minded I am but,

I see what I see, I am well travelled and have seen enough sickness around the world.

I do appreciate your comments Inanna, don't think that stories like yours don't pull my heart-strings, I am human and I have children and they get sick and I get scared. I think that its very likely that there is some connection between autism and vaccinations and thats awful but,

I still get and my children get vaccinated, they also get:

• Possibly 5-6 times more likely to get asthma.

• Possibly autism

• Possbly nasty anaphalaxis (DD had a febrile convulsion once and it was awful in ways I cannot describe).

• Possibly MS.

• Possibly sick from the diseases we're immunised against.

• Even if 94% of our neighbours get immunised.

• Possibly paid out by the Steiner kids for not being 'natural'.

• Possibly things we don't even understand yet.

• Possibly told we smell funny by certain well educated forum members...

• Its a long list.

Still we're immunised with boosters too.

[slyder]

But how much is that to do with basic hygiene matters PollyA? Are they on the same 'level' as us when it comes to personal hygiene and water issues? I didn't think they were, could be wrong, but that would be a major reason for diseases spreading in unimmunized countries.

Keike no they do not have the same level as hygeine as we do here in Australia.

[Inanna]

Maybe I shouldn't be in here right now (need to check myself) because I am finding this offensive & I know that's totally my issue...

My children go to a school that has more than 80% of the children (recent update) not immunised. I am completely unaware as to which children are immunised. My children dont' "pay out" other kids for not being natural... Rather they empathise when kids get ill. I am sure you're joking. I am also sure that my frame of mind is not jovial so is not reading your post in humor.

I can't smell you - but I am sensing that you are very set in how you feel and see this. I am not so set. I just know that for my kids I cannot vax them becuase of my experiences. I also know that it's a very difficult decision made with out mirth or humor.

[Inanna]

Not sure what your postless quotations mean Slyder - personal hygeine standards are arguably lower I guess due to the low quality water. You will note I clarified my position as to why hygeine levels are not the same. Not because Samoans don't wash. But because Samoa does not have the same level of sanitiation, water or health care as our country. If you are trying to twist Keike into a bigot perhaps you should directly question her as to her meaning. I am not the one to do that. If you are trying to allude to me being a bigot then be my guest.

[RockinSAHD]

Also Yeddi that 'the status quo has been unnaturally or dramatically changed' by their being 6.8 billion humans on this planet and a population mobility undreamed of very recently. We live in a disease paradise, the battle lines are changed forever!

[slyder]

I can't smell you - but I am sensing that you are very set in how you feel and see this.

Christ, I hope you can't smell me!! Never heard that one before...

Your senses are a bit off. I am 50/50 for vac (ie. big fat fence sitter/undecided/not sure), but 100% against compulsory vac.

There may be some crossed wires here. I think Keike's comment was poor form, and perhaps I have misunderstood your posts and references to hygeine following on from that. If I have, I'm sorry. And no, you're not a bigot by any means

I totally agree it's not hard to find bigoted opinion of other cultures - but if that's what you believe you see in this thread I think you need to step back and actually ask some questions of those you are finding uneducated and bigoted. Don't fire off your guns without asking some questions first.

OK. Fair enough.

[Inanna]

You sure do have some crossed wires Slyder. You have quoted me in answer to SAHD. He commented on smell. He commented on a number of things & I replied in part. Your highlighted quote from me had absolutely nothing to do with you.

I still get and my children get vaccinated, they also get:
Possibly 5-6 times more likely to get asthma.
Possibly autism
Possbly nasty anaphalaxis (DD had a febrile convulsion once and it was awful in ways I cannot describe).
Possibly MS.
Possibly sick from the diseases we're immunised against.
Even if 94% of our neighbours get immunised.
Possibly paid out by the Steiner kids for not being 'natural'.
Possibly things we don't even understand yet.
Possibly told we smell funny by certain well educated forum members...
Its a long list.

I think it's important before you see someone in poor form to actually ask for clarification. Keieke isn't a bigot either - perhaps she could have phrased her words more adequately, but jumping to the conclusion of bigotry is dangerous & very likely to cause an uproar as you well know.

As for me being a bigot I won't even go there to respond I won't defend myself but graciously accept your view of my non bigot status!

[LimeSlice]

However, the Samoans are an indigenous population.
If you look at the effects of disease and also immunisation on indeginous populations you will find very different results than the affects on western or white populations.
Going as far back as the total anilhation of the native South American populations by the Spanish, to the small pox out breaks of the North American Indians and the effects on the Australian Aboriginal population of 'white' diseases....right through to the effects of the vaccinations themselves on the children in the 1970s, the native popultion of the world does NOT succumb to disease the same way whites/westerners do, does not respond to the same vaccines we do, nor do they handle other toxins like we do - such as alcohol and tobabcco (which can be seen in Australian Aboriginal populations, NZ Maori populations and North American Indian population.).

Vaccines are NOT a one size fits all concept, and this is why making them compulsory is beyond dangerous, it would be fatal for many and cause an unknown number if ill-effect in many it is supposed to protect.

For many if not most of the non-vaxers I have discussed this with over the last few years, one of, if not THE, major issue with vaccines is not the concept of immunity or the premis that introducing the bug will cause a (sort of) natural immunological response, but that these injections contain a number of PROVEN toxic ingredients, and we do not accept the given medical excuse that they are in minimal and therefore safe doses.
NOBODY has the right or privildge to decide MY child(ren) will be injected with toxic substances. EVER, for any reason. And I would challenge anyone to physically try.

There will never be total prevention of illness and disease - and nor should there be. There is a reason why nature produces pathogens and bacteria - it is called population control and it MUST occur.
Basic rules in preventing spread of disease go a very very long way - sanitation, hygeine and basic manners - like covering your mouth and nose when sneezing and coughing - and avoiding contact with fluids and blood products. But there are some contacts you will never be able to prevent, and some might call it inhumane, but I never expect or want them too - and yes, some children in the world will die form measles, just like they die form dysentary and cholera, malnutrition and warlord's bullets.

The sooner people accept the disease is apart of the natural world, and the more we try and fight it with certain weapons the stronger they will adapt themselves, the better off we will all be.

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

Wow.

My original question was actually a question. It was mentioned that death rates for immunisable diseases are higher in non-vaccinating countries, to which my question, however it has been misinterpreted, was - how much does that have to do with differing hygeine standards? I was asking what I thought was an intelligent question, and I was expecting an answer, not being flamed.

Inanna, thank you for understanding the meaning behind my rather clumsy words - I'll bow out of this thread now, I'm surprised by how much your comments have hurt Slyder, I'm obviously not intelligent enough for this discussion and so will leave it.

[Inanna]

i don't think you need to bow out at all Keike. You were misunderstood & clarification wasn't sought. It's necessary to seek clarification before assuming ill intent - I think by what Slyd has said he feels that way. It's all good o. But please don't assume also. I don't think anyone was saying you are unintelligent. I certainly dom't believe that for a minute.

[slyder]

No, Keike's comments are there in black and white questioning the personal hygeine of Samoans. I don't think I misinterpreted anything.

That said, I don't see any need to take the bat and ball and go home.

Anyway, whatever, I've said my bit and don't intend to go on about it.

[LimeSlice]

It is important to note there is a significant difference in definition between 'personal hygiene' and 'sanitation'.

I understodf what Keike was saying, and it is a valid question and relevant to disease perpetuation. But the comments based on personal hygiene are incorrect, the phrase that should have been used was sanitation standards and infrastructure.

Certainly no need for dramatics however, simply miswording and misunderstanding, which as adults we should be able to move on from without offence.

[PollyA]

There will never be total prevention of illness and disease - and nor should there be. There is a reason why nature produces pathogens and bacteria - it is called population control and it MUST occur.
Basic rules in preventing spread of disease go a very very long way - sanitation, hygeine and basic manners - like covering your mouth and nose when sneezing and coughing - and avoiding contact with fluids and blood products. But there are some contacts you will never be able to prevent, and some might call it inhumane, but I never expect or want them too - and yes, some children in the world will die form measles, just like they die form dysentary and cholera, malnutrition and warlord's bullets.

The sooner people accept the disease is apart of the natural world, and the more we try and fight it with certain weapons the stronger they will adapt themselves, the better off we will all be.

LIme, I respect you have your opinion but can you not see that this kind of statement is just as offensive as some of the provaccination debate statements
Where do you draw the line with arguments such as these?
Premature babies are saved these days by medical intervention- should they be left to die as is the natural order of things? Antibiotics save lives and treat infectious diseases that you speak of, should we give those away too. Such generalisations on either side of the debate are a slippery slope. And statements such as these are much easier to make in a country which has seen a dramatic drop in infectious diseases- you may say living conditions, I may say a combination of vaccines and improved living conditions...either way I find it incredibly offensive to the women the world over burying their babies for a lack of both that you would call infectious disease population control.
I defy you to tell me that if infectious diseases once again became epidemic in Australia and it was your babies and your friends and families being buried you would still hold this view.
I see vaccination as I see public eduation. A privelage. I would never force them on anyone or support them being compulsory as I can see your side, I can see that for some the risks involved may be unpalatable and to force something carrying a risk on someone is assault.
But PLEASE, respect that there are two sides to this debate
Modern Medicine is very particular about evidenece and modern governments do not fund expensive programs easily.
As far as your arguments about Indigenous populations, I trained in the NT and have a passion for Indigenous helath. I worked with the paediatrician who championed the cause of adding pneumococcaal to the schedule after switching off the life supoprt on another child with pneumococcal meningitis. No conspiracy there, just pure desire to stop preventible death. ANd there is no doubt that this particular vaccine reduced morbidity and mortality in Indigenous populations.
Infectious disease are not "white disease" either with a large burden in non caucasion world
This will be my last reply on this topic, I value what BB offers me in terms of support too much to risk going out in a blaze of controversy.
I respect peoples individual opinion, what troubles me is pushing a one sided argument about vaccination with patchy evidence to supoport without respect that there is another side. Before you say I don't respect your side I do... I have repeatedly admiteed it is a two sided argument, but feeling very beaten into submission by the geenral tone of these forums and disprespected. This, is why the pro vaccination side of the argument is either absent or inflammatory.
I don't geneally do inflammatory and i am now understanding where if may come from and many of you may see this post as inflammatory. I apologise.
I could come here daily with support and evidence for "my side" as, hand on my heart, i promise that it exists.
BUt I won't because I don't think this discussion will have a good outcome, so instead i will agree to disagree with the small request to please consider the balance of the argument. Please consider that just as you are disgusted by some pro vaccination statements that are ill thought out, some of the anti statements are equally inflammatory and disrespectful to people

[Inanna]

Here Here Limey.