just an little "unnecessary intervention" vent

[Tegam]

1) And ANYONE suggesting I could have done better, even with hindsight or the next time around, should be bound and gagged before I attack them.


2) The only way I could improve and give birth is by not telling DH I'm pregnant and/or in labour.

3) The system is stuffed, there is no hope for any woman who enters therein. Which is why I am pushing freebirth being a more acceptable alternative to torture.

1) very strong words......but refer to points 2 and 3...You say you couldnt do better then point out two ways you have identified how you could??? And then contiuned to say that you would attck someone for pointing them out....... Lucky that these forums give us all a chance to say what we feel in a SAFE and RESPECTFUL environment!

2) option 1 for a better birth....

3) option 2 for a better birth.....

Nelle... i too have had a none planned freebirth...

I feel that freebirth is NOT something that people should discuss lightly and infact advocate it without experiencing

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

That's why I wanted to experience a freebirth with DS and why I will with any future pregnancies. It seemed like bliss when I was pg. In fact, I enjoyed the labour I had when the midwives were too busy to check in on me. I liked doing it on my own. In fact, I kept wandering "to the loo" for 10-15 minutes at a time so I could be on my own. I didn't WANT anyone else there.

I won't make any more comments.

[Tegam]

I hope beyond words that you get the birth you want next time Rosehip and that it also brings with it some amount of healing!

I also hope that you can find the strength to have another baby after the trauma you have clearly experienced.... Good luck!

[Bathsheba]

It's been an interesting discussion. Lots of very valid points. I do understand theoretically where you are coming from BG but unfortunately 2 of my 3 births (I felt) involved a lot of unnecessary intervention that was given simply because people in hospital don't like to wait to see if anything is actually wrong... they seem to be of the belief that "if in doubt then do something" which like a few posters have said, is OFTEN the start of a downward spiral... so often one intervention leads to another.... and another... and another until a C-section is the only hope for the poor exhausted mother and strung out father who at that point will agree to anything.

I received intervention with my first birth simply because I was a late 40 + 10. I actually went into labour naturally... the night before my scheduled induction... and despite nice strong regular contractions they deemed that I wasn't labouring "fast enough". I had only been in labour (ie the from the very first twinges) half a day. So they decided to break my waters... that cranked things up but STILL I wasn't doing it fast enough... so they hooked me up to syncotin (a nasty synthetic version of oxytocin which makes contraction much stronger). And yes it "worked". My contractions got so strong that they didn't stop.... they ran into each other... I lost focus... felt like I was dying and basically decided I couldn't do it anymore.... so that meant MORE intervention: I was put flat on my back... tied down with fetal monitoring and a drip.... legs in hard metal stirrups. I couldn't tune in to my birth at all... in the end the OB had to suck out my baby with a vacuum.... thankfully he avoided forcepts. My baby arrived. She was 7 pounds (not big despite being so "late", had no signs of being over cooked and the placenta was in perfect condition despite being late.

Now the thing that horrifies me is the education I have sought many years after that birth... I was very shocked to have read how dangerous it was that my contractions were so strong that they were simply one long contraction for hours. I have read that giving a woman too high a dose of syncotin (which I strongly feel that I was given due to the hospital staffs impatience) is actually a huge threat to the safety of the baby. My baby ultimately became distressed because she was being squeezed so hard and relentlessly that her breathing was being compromised. There was no emergency prior to having that syncotim hooked up. No emergency what so ever!!!! Everything was fine... but I was "late" according to some blanket style approach to birth. My baby was showing no signs of distress UNTIL they started to interfere. Why why why???

A similar thing happened during my third birth... or nearly happened... it was only for the support of my watchful doula who helped me argue the point to keep the syncotin levels to a minimum that avoided a repeat situation. How interesting that with a MINIMUM dose of syncotin I was able to stay lucid enough at the end to actually push my baby out by myself!

I don't dispute that when a birth needs to become medicalised (as it was in my third birth due to me having cholestasis) I will accept medical advice. BUT that still doesn't give the hospital staff the right to tell me to hurry up and fit in with their schedule. They actually told me that they were busy that day and needed the delivery suite I was using so it would be "beneficial" for me to have a stronger dose of syncotin to help my labour progress faster. But I was awfully inconvenient and said NO. And an inconvenient (for them) 6 hours later I gave birth to a healthy 9 pound boy... that I pushed out myself thankyou very much!

So although i do understand your point BG... my personal experience does indicate that at the end of the day what a woman really needs is a advocate for HER to balance what she is being told that may or may not really be in her best interests.... and I found this with having my doula. Education is great.... but at the end of the day a woman in labour will not be thinking straight... as well as being educated herself she would benefit from also having a well educated advocate.

Getting back to Rory's original post and point; I guess what Rory is hoping is that that woman finds someone to give her a bit of balance to the argument of "Big Baby"... and not subscribe to the nervous intervention-prone environment of hospitals which unfortunately (I believe) are responsible for creating just as many birthing emergencies as they are forced to deal with.

[berrme]

I was even told off for being "too relaxed" - pregnancy is, of course, a state of stress and we all NEED to give ourselves pre-eclampsia: I'm sure the midwives would have raised my blood pressure if they could. Good thing I knew enough to ignore them.

Would just like to point out that you don't give yourself pre-eclampsia. I was perfectly relaxed about my pregnancy until I got preeclampsia... that made me stressed.

[sunshine_sieben]

Tegam - i can understand what you're saying, but there still needs to be a limit put on how far past EDD people go. i have, and will continue, to accept that my OB has an endate that he won't let me "go past" - this is in the best interests of myself and my baby. i know this. my situation may not be considered normal for many reasons, but you can't tar everyone with the same brush. i'm not "uneducated" i'm not "blindly taking his word for it" - i know of my own medical issues, i know what CAN happen and i'm not prepared to tell my Ob to jam it and put myself and my Gremlin at risk simply so that i can feel "empowered".

provided you know what benefits and risks exist for every possible outcome (waiting, inducing, cs etc) you can make an educated decision as to whether to follow the advice handed to you by your Ob (or middie, GP whoever) or to discard it. i have chosen to follow my Ob's recommendations. so yes, i DO have a date he "won't let me go past" - and that isn't a bad thing!

please keep in mind that people with genuine health issues (which may not manifest in visible ways) which INCLUDE mental health issues (anxiety anyone?), having an endate in mind CAN actually help them relax enough about what is to come for spontaneous labour to occur. and making them feel blind or naive for taking that advice from their care provider doesn't help at all - just adds to the already rampant "what the hell is going on with my body/baby??" thoughts that are running through their head.

as to your comments that the medical profession does everything in it's power to keep women uninformed - i believe you'll find that the medical profession doesn't help to educate ANYONE - if you don't self-educate, you simply won't know. that is something we, as CONSUMERS of medical advice, need to change for ourselves - medical professionals don't necessarily have the time or resources to educate everyone - so we all have to take responsibility for educating ourselves.

i do agree that there are enough first time parents who are not given the "bigger picture" of birthing, the implications of induction/intervention vs natural birth to raise concern - but there needs to be more support for education, rather than just bagging the medical profession. child birth education needs to be more available in a non-confrontational situation for everyone - for far too many people, their only exposure is hospital run birthing classes - group sessions with dodgy old videos of people giving birth...

sorry - it may seem i'm being argumentative - but as a first time mother, sometimes reading threads of this nature make it feel like you're basically being accused of being uninformed simply because you have chosen to trust in your care provider! there needs to be a balance of education and acceptance. we all have a right to choose our mode of care and that should be respected. yes, stand up and make sure there is information out there to ensure people are educated as much as possible, but don't make people feel bad for making the choices they make simply because they don't equate to a "natural/normal" birth as it stands....

Mmmm, I think saying that your OB won't let you go past a certain day is not accurate in your case. Your OB doesn't reccommend that you go past this date and you have made a decision to follow his advice. This decision you have based on your own knowledge and the fact that you trust him. It's is not a decision he has made, it is a decision you have made. And I think that is what previous posters were referring to. Not that you should always go against your OB's reccommendation or that he shouldn't have an opinion in the first place, but that we as pregnant women need to make our own choices and own them.

Sasa

[Tegam]

Hey Rory....ever thought that your thread would get this response

[Diamond75]

if someone goes around reading the Ob bashing that seems to be happening in threads like this, they may decide just to ignore the advice WITHOUT educating themselves. if you're uneducated and blindly trust a forum of this sort, you MIGHT put yours or your childs life at risk. i'm quite sure those ladies who've had late onset and severe pre-eclampsia would kick themselves if they'd decided to ignore their Ob's advice to be induced (Hollye?) and something gone wrong for themselves or their baby. i'm sure, in the heat of the moment, some of those ladies HAD to have blind faith in their carers. what a horrible thought - to put your faith in the people that saved you and your child...

Totally agree with you BG. I never understand why their is so much OB bashing on this site? I say, thank god for OB's, hosptials, interventions, pain relief....

With my pregnancy of my second child by bp was around 150/110 in the final weeks and yet I had no obvious physical pre-eclampsia symptoms. If I had decided to "freebirth" I would of put myself and my baby's life at risk. Fortunately I was induced and I had a positive birth expierence and when I say "positive" I am stating the fact that my baby was born alive and healthy. To me this is the important issue. Should I have not had faith in my Ob the outcome may have been very different.

[Lulu]

*sigh - WHAT ob bashing?

[Roryrory]

Tegam - no, but I should have known it would

Diamond (and also BG, who I think first mentioned women might ignore OBs advice where problems arise) I think the point most of us seem to be making here, and the one I was trying to make when I entitled this thread as an "unnecessary intervention" vent, was that often women face intervention where it is not warranted at all. Not at the time, not in hindsight - not at all. Wanting the right to avoid unnecessary intervention is worlds away from a freebirth. It's like saying if you want to cut back on red meat you must be a wanna-be vegan! Its a spectrum, not a see-saw.

Personally, Diamond, if you or any other woma ise keen to have a birth with pain relief, an OB on standby, in a hospital with interventions at your doctor's fingertips, then I am happy for you and wish you well. Because for today's birthing mother that is the norm - the world is catering for people with your approach to birth. But if like me you would like the chance to have a baby without unnecessary (there's that word again) intervention, with a midwife on standby instead of an OB and maybe in a birth centre or even at home, them this site (and its "OB bashing" as you put it) is a beacon in the darkness.

From my perspective, it is important to have a healthy baby AND a good birthing experience. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive (in fact numerous studies show that statistically the two are reliant upon each other!). Not EVERY birth is dangerous, not EVERY intervention is warranted. Every situation is different, which is why it is important to not put women who are able/lucky/blessed/whatever to be able to birth without intervention should NOT be put in the same risk basket with someone with high BP, placenta preavia (sp?), or whatever.

[Diamond75]

Well said Roryroy.

I guess the one thing we can all agree upon is the importance knowledge and self education when it comes to pregnancy and child birth. With this, it allows us to make own personal informed decisions about our bodies and our babies. No matter what our preferences are.

[Tegam]

Tegam - no, but I should have known it would

Diamond (and also BG, who I think first mentioned women might ignore OBs advice where problems arise) I think the point most of us seem to be making here, and the one I was trying to make when I entitled this thread as an "unnecessary intervention" vent, was that often women face intervention where it is not warranted at all. Not at the time, not in hindsight - not at all. Wanting the right to avoid unnecessary intervention is worlds away from a freebirth. It's like saying if you want to cut back on red meat you must be a wanna-be vegan! Its a spectrum, not a see-saw.

Personally, Diamond, if you or any other woma ise keen to have a birth with pain relief, an OB on standby, in a hospital with interventions at your doctor's fingertips, then I am happy for you and wish you well. Because for today's birthing mother that is the norm - the world is catering for people with your approach to birth. But if like me you would like the chance to have a baby without unnecessary (there's that word again) intervention, with a midwife on standby instead of an OB and maybe in a birth centre or even at home, them this site (and its "OB bashing" as you put it) is a beacon in the darkness.

From my perspective, it is important to have a healthy baby AND a good birthing experience. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive (in fact numerous studies show that statistically the two are reliant upon each other!). Not EVERY birth is dangerous, not EVERY intervention is warranted. Every situation is different, which is why it is important to not put women who are able/lucky/blessed/whatever to be able to birth without intervention should NOT be put in the same risk basket with someone with high BP, placenta preavia (sp?), or whatever.

There is no way i could have said it better!

[MantaRay]

Hmm. I have stayed out of here but I do want to say my piece. Not all intervention is bad - no-one is saying that. But the fact is that some, maybe even a lot, of intervention is unnecessary. This is a costly burden to our health systems. And mostly when unnecessary intervention is started, it begins a cascade which causes complications.

I know this from experience. Both my labours should have been quick and easy. The second one, with no intervention, was. The first one was to begin with. Then the ob broke my waters without consultation. I was lying on my back and felt very strong contractions after the waters broke. No-one told me that I could ease them by getting into a better position (or in fact would let me get into a better position, because the waters suggested their MAY have been meconium, so a fetal monitor went on immediately. Then while I was lying flat on my back with exaggerated contractions, they told me the anaesthetist was about to leave for the evening so I need to have an epidural immediately, or I'd not have the option again. So of course I gave in to pressure and said yes. As a result my bp dropped and I couldn't even have my head raised to push. The labour slowed and DS went into foetal distress. I couldn't feel the pushing properly, and forceps were used. So I ended up tearing, needing an episotomy and getting haemorrhoids. I was in pain for weeks afterwards. And guess what - there was no meconium after all!!

After my 3 hour, almost intervention free second birth, I had no pain and no complications. I know that my first birth would have been the same if they hadn't started the cascade with the ARM. I know that the intervention was unnecessary and was the cause of all the subsequent interventions.

This is what people mean by unnecessary interventions. They do happen and often.

[berrme]

There has to be a happy medium here surely. I think that there are times on BB when obs are written about very harshly. Sometimes this is warranted, other times not. I don't think this thread was intended to make everyone decide to home birth. simply to vent about the women out there who are being misinformed by their caregivers. Not always obs; it was the ultrasonographer who tried to tell me I wouldn't be able to birth DS1 as he was too big, my ob said not to worry.

Diamond, I think you fit into the category of people who are OK with their birth experience as you know it was needed. Me too. I have experienced a birth with necessary intervention (severe preeclampsia and emergency c/s at 38 weeks) and a VBAC with minimal intervention (ARM). You also need to realise that not all people are high risk. People don't home or freebirth if they are high risk. Even people with the intention of homebirth generally would have health checks throughout their pregnancies and if they developed preeclampsia, as we did, or some other serious problem, would do what was safest.
What we do need is to be able to rely on caregivers to give us the right information. Not to recommend early induction because a baby might be too big.

[Roryrory]

Berme I am actually one who had a degree of praise for my OB with my first birth. He did suggest I stay in hospital overnight once my waters broke but when I insisted (quite firmly, several times), he "let" me go home. He did have me on my back and legs in the air when I had a POSTERIOR baby turtle-ing in and out for 2 hours, but he didn't use forceps or order a caesar. He did give me an epi (after asking - after hours of labour he could have said "can I shoot you" and I would have said yes) but had no problem with not cutting the cord til after it stopped pulsating. And so it goes.

So all it all he did a good job - for an OB with the weight of interventionist practice behind him he was pretty restrained. And if you wanted an OB who was open to natural-"ish" hospital births he would be a good choice. But nothing beats having a baby with a midwife who doesn't even give you an internal and just helps you get comfortable!

And LOL you are right in that this thread wasn't intended to convince people to homebirth. For all my talk about non-intervention I am too much of scardey cat to birth at home. So long as I can have a midwife with me and birth in a birth centre, I personally don't want to be away from medical attention if need be. I do still want a hospital and OB, somewhere, close by. Just not in the same damn room, until I REALLY need them, thanks......

[Inertia]

And LOL you are right in that this thread wasn't intended to convince people to homebirth. For all my talk about non-intervention I am too much of scardey cat to birth at home. So long as I can have a midwife with me and birth in a birth centre, I personally don't want to be away from medical attention if need be. I do still want a hospital and OB, somewhere, close by. Just not in the same damn room, until I REALLY need them, thanks......

My thoughts exactly. I mean, I am "high risk" but still not high enough to have an ob around. Paed for the baby to make sure he/she isnt adversely affected by my anti-e antibodies, and a bag of syntocinon 'just in case' I have another PPH.. but still no ob.

Why? Because it would be a pointless waste of money for the hospital when I am still not in a position that one is needed! Funny what minimal funding will make a hospital admit.

So no. No ob bashing.. If I ever need one, then I bloody well want one!

[bon]

I have had one high intervention birth - my first, induced due to pre eclampsia, followed up with a PPH - but it was warranted. And despite the fact that it was not what I would class as a good experience, I cannot fault the care I received from the OBs who attended me, especially at the end when I haemorrhaged. My second birth, the intervention was unwarranted. I was induced with the drip, and had ARM all because my waters had broken 12 hours before and things were not happening. I haemorrhaged again, which I now know was because of the syntocinon, of which one of the many side affects can be PPH. Ironic, considering they actually use synto to help stop a PPH in progress. Still, I don't blame the OB who attended me - I was given the option to 'wait and see', but I chose the induction because I wanted things to happen. Both those experiences, though, made me all the more aware of how easy it is to experience a cascade of interventions, and also made me very aware of the fact that I want to avoid induction at all costs - because I fully believe that it is being induced that made me bleed after the births (although I know the hospital would deny it). The first time, it was for the good of me and DS. The second time, it was unnecessary. My third birth, completely spontaneous, attended only by a midwife, no interventions at all - and no PPH. I know what birth I want this time around.

[Novella]

So long as I can have a midwife with me and birth in a birth centre, I personally don't want to be away from medical attention if need be. I do still want a hospital and OB, somewhere, close by. Just not in the same damn room, until I REALLY need them, thanks......

exactly how I feel! If only I could express it so eloquently. This is why I chose a case load midwifery program at a birth centre in a large public hospital.