Sleep challenge

[CrystalBoo]

Ok, so what do you do with a 10m old who has always fallen asleep on the breast and now is beginning the 'when you put me down I'll wake up again' business. She refuses (strongly) patting, rocking, stroking, lying down beside, dummies and cuddles when she's going off to sleep (though is frustratingly happy with all these things when in play mode) I have read No Cry Sleep Solution and have been doing the pull-off for at least 2 months without any suggestion that she might be weaning off the feed to sleep. Frustration levels are rising quickly here... Any ideas?

[MantaRay]

Sacha, that's a tough one! The only things I can think of right now are calming music, and a comforter. My youngest needs to suck his thumb, and hold his sheet up to his cheek to be able to settle (not just for sleep either, he does it everytime he gets upset - if not a sheet it can be any item of clothing). Have you tried a dummy?

[CrystalBoo]

Yes, it is a toughie that's for sure. I have tried since birth to get a dummy into her but she will only take one to suck on as toy while playing -smacks it away if i try at bedtime. She has had the same rain sounds and elephant cuddly since birth but is not happy to just cuddle it (or me) to sleep. Thanks for trying anyway.

[Arimeh]

I don't know if this will be particularly helpful or not, but we have been trying to stop patting our DS to sleep at night, without letting him scream his lungs out of course, so this is what I currently do - which works for us.

I just put him in his cot, and sit down beside the cot. He has his dummy and favourite wrap over him - all which are cues for him that it is bedtime, much like what you have with the music and toy for yours. Then I just stick my hand in the cot, and either just lay my hand on his back, or if I can't reach (arms are too fat.. hehe) then I just sorta hold his hand.

Then I just relax... I figure if I'm relaxed, he will relax too... and I listen to his music in the room.. and just breathe nice and even.... almost meditation really... I just figure that if the vibes he is getting off me are nice and relaxing and I'm not stressing or getting frustrated bout getting him to sleep, he will be more likely to pick up on sleepy relaxing vibes instead!!! Well thats the theory anyway!! haha!!!

Seems to be working. After he has gone to sleep, I escape to the real world. I must say, I really don't mind doing this because its nice to wind down at the end of the day for me too...

Hope this helps!! Its very difficult finding something that works for your bub...

[MantaRay]

Sacha, what happens when you try patting? Does she struggle to get up and scream? What happens if you persist with it for a few minutes? I'm asking because I know sometimes my DS has to scream for a minute or so before he can calm down - he will self-settle and be fine, usually he even wants to sleep and is only screaming because I've kept him up by changing his nappy or something instead of putting him straight down. It's not the same I know, as he know longer wants bb before bed, but I'm wondering if she just might need to scream for a minute, either with you patting her, or not. And if you just left her (not for long of course) would she settle straight down?

[CrystalBoo]

I have tried both of those things, but maybe I need to be more persistant. She really works herself up to almost vomiting very quickly if i hold her down in the cot in any way and if I sit beside the cot, she may spend up to an hour getting up and down, playing, talking etc before starting the full on scream when I don't give in and talk to her or get her up. I am thinking I might do an in-arms hold and see how long I can put up with the screaming, back arching etc. Maybe it's just a case of seeing who gives in first though I don't like her to get worked up, it might be the only sanity saver I have and at least I won't be leaving her to cry on her own. Thanks heaps for your ideas, I will try a modified version of both with a hold tight rock while I drift to my 'special place' LOL

[MantaRay]

Oh Sacha, you have your hands full there. Your DD sounds similar to Tom, but he will self-settle very quickly. It's odd though, I think most babies like to be picked up when upset - usually Tom doesn't, in fact mostly it makes him scream more. All he want is something fabric to put against his cheek and his thumb in his mouth. I think this might be the key with your DD too - finding whatever it is that will help her to self-settle. The difficultly is finding what that thing is.

If she is like Tom, holding in your arms might not work, as I said, this usually makes him worse. But it is probably worth a try, as nothing else is working right now for you. Best of luck, I hope something works soon. I'll keep thinking about it for you, let me know how you are going.

[CrystalBoo]

Just wanted to update since you were all trying so hard to come up with solutions for me.

Autie is now going to sleep, in her cot, on her own (though I stay in the room still at this point), no longer feeds to sleep, wakes once or maybe twice a night and will go back to sleep in minutes without having to get out of bed at all. AND sleeps more during the day!

I am getting real sleep for the first time in about 6 months - no more up and down 8 times a night! And I never once left her to cry on her own! That's what I'm most happy about. It may have taken a month or so to do it all gradually, but it passed in a flash once we had the first breakthrough. We are ALL much happier at our place! LOL

[Ginger]

sacha- how exactly did you achieve this?
do you mind explaining it to me as i am having the exact same problem with ds at the moment,
i have just ordered a copy of 'no cry sleep solutions' but am still waiting for it to arrive. he will ONLY breastfeed to sleep, nothing else and it is doing my head in,
tia

[CrystalBoo]

Rainforest, it was a combination of things I think. I will do my best to describe it but you know how things kind of evolve sometimes?

Ok, I did the following that I think made the biggest difference.
* I read the book and found it excellent, though it seemed I was already doing the majority of those things myself. Still it is definitely worth starting all those little things as they did contribute I'm sure
* I moved her to her own room, she's a light sleeper and I think our night noises woke her more than necessary. I still BF to sleep and got up a lot. I gave her two days to get used to the change.
* I began introducing a bottle so she would get used to formula. I always suspected that my milk was probably only just enough to get by. I gave it to her when I knew she'd be hungry (mid afternoon usually) instead of a snack and let her watch tv while she had it.
* I got myself a comfortable chair for her room. It is the Poang from Ikea and it has a bouncy movement.
* After two days in her own room, I cut her off from night BF. This was the hardest part and it DID involve crying. I BF to sleep (until dead asleep, twitching IYKWIM?) When she woke after the first hour, I went in, got her out and sat in the chair, holding her tight enough that she couldn't arch and I bounced. Boy did I bounce! At the same time I made the 'ssshhh' noise alternated with 'i love you's. It took between five and ten minutes of screaming blue murder before she fell asleep and I gradually slowed the bouncing until she was twitchy again. It was hard to hear that but I had reached the end of my tether and was determined to change things. I never wanted her to cry at all, but at least she was in my arms the whole time. I repeated this three more times that night, and each time it took less and less time. The second night, it was still about four times, but there was very little, if any, crying involved. She was content with the rocking. By night three, it was down to once or twice, and she was back to sleep with the rocking almost immediately.
* Then I started with a bedtime bottle, holding her. Then BF after. I also kept a bottle ready to make up beside my bed, and gave it to her if she woke anytime after about 1am. The first night I did this, she woke once at 1.30 and then slept until 5. When she woke, from 5 onwards, I would turn on lights, get her up and bring her in for cuddles in our bed and a BF, with lots of praise, so she would know it was morning (even if still very early!) and that's why she was getting up and allowed a BF.
I found the waking as she was put in her cot really just stopped happening once she was sleeping better.
* I started daytime nap bottles, still BF after, and one day just gave it to her in her bed. I went off into lala land sitting beside her bed, and she finished and started flopping around her cot. I thought I'd just let it go until she cried, then get her up for her BF but I suddenly snapped out of my daydreaming and realised she had gone to sleep on her own! After that, I gave all bottles in the same way, and she could have BF if she got worked up in her cot. She just gradually stopped spending much time on me and even began whinging to get into her cot. Big surprise.
So now she has basically started weaning herself. Not my intention but she is old enough and I'm happy if she is. I stopped offering feeds altogether (except first thing in morning but it is more for comfort). Oh, another I forgot to mention was that I got DH in on the act early on when I cut the night boob. Trained him in the exact holding/ssshing/words method I was using so that if it went on too many times a night, I could get a break in. As it turns out, I didn't need him very often as her night wakings cut dramatically after first few nights.
I also stopped getting her out of bed after a while, in the night. Just gave it a go to give 'ssh' if before 1am, or give bottle in bed if after 1am. This worked surprisingly quickly too.
Phew! Massive post, sorry about that. I know have probably left out little details here and there, and if any of this helps you, they might be important to you, so let me know if I can be more specific in any area. I know how much you just want to have a step by step when things are a nightmare. Maybe none of it is suitable to you and your DS.
I will say a couple of things that I think were important:
* I think *I* had to reach rock bottom to get through the crying part
* I had to reach a point where I felt *she* was capable of change and understanding a bit better
* I made sure to give lots of extra TLC during the day during the hard part.

Hope something works for you. :goodluck2:

[Ginger]

thanks so much for your explanation sacha
i am hanging out to get the book- hopefully it arrives this week.
i've got a rocking chair as well in the lounge room that i will have to move into his room and start rocking him a bit more. thanks again