Preventing the early sexualisation of our children

[Krisvee]

Rhyb - I probably don't have a great answer for you but here's my thoughts. I think you need to definitely work on yourself - there are so many ways you can do that but I think a lot of it comes with age and experience. There's so many resources out there in areas of self development...it allows you to start looking at the bigger picture of life I believe and not to focus on things like superficial appearance. Also, being aware of what other go through can make you feel very grateful for what you have (even if it's sagging!!) People in wheelchairs, amputees, burn victims...etc Sometimes we all need this reality check to bring us back to what is important. Your body has done some amazing work by providing you with 3 gorgeous children - be PROUD of it! There are plenty of people that would do anything to be in that position...
The most important thing is that you recognise it which is fantastic - just that alone will make it easier to set the right example to your girls.

I also think there needs to be a balance - it is ok to want to look nice, to get dressed up in nice clothes and I think we also need to not go over the top - it is ok for a woman to want to feel sexy or attractive - especially to her husband/partner...I think we just don't want kids jumping into things when they're too young...it's easy to make this backfire and have girls growing up ashamed of themselves as sexual beings...There's a fine line!!! As I've said before, I think it all comes down to being open and honest as kids get older and educating them!!

I hope I haven't rambled on too much...

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Totally off topic, but...

It could be that DH has been working away. Could be that when DS woke up with a nightmare last night all that would calm him was getting into bed with me and watching a Wiggles DVD. But did anyone else think "mmm, Wiggles in sexy photoshoot" and like the thought?

OK, just me then. But that was the part of the article that I liked.

Back on topic...

I think the best thing we can do for our daughters and the other young girls that we know is to show that it's OK to love your "imperfect" body. It's OK to love your mates' "imperfect" bodies too. I wore a pretty outfit today and you know what - I don't give a stuff that I was standing at 6'3 tall (188cm) and my outfit showed I have what is kindly referred to as an "athletic" figure. I looked good. I was aiming to look professional and honest, due to a court hearing earlier in the day, but I still looked fabulous. Not sexy - just well-dressed. I tell my friends that they look good when they do too. Which is quite a bit!

I just think if you want to look sexy, you are inviting people to see you in light of sex. And tbh I don't want others to see me like that. My DH yes, but not other people. They see me as a woman usually because of the longish hair and skirts rather than the undies! If I needed my undies (or photos in them) to tell me I'm a woman then why am I not checking I'm not a man when I shower? Surely that is easier than getting tarted up and selling my body to a magazine that men will... well... not be thinking "wow, I'd love an intellectual conversation with her" when they look at the pictures.

[Krisvee]

Ryn - I think that is part of the problem that we don't understand - we have those occasional thoughts about men, whereas men are constantly thinking about sex and checking out women!! It's in their wiring! Of course, it is important that we are not turning our young girls into eye candy for them but I think you find most men with any values whatsoever will turn a blind eye when they know a girl is to young to be oogling...

Did you guys know that Australia has the highest rate of convicted child sex offenders in Thailand (and probably asia in general?) That is disgusting!!! And obviously there needs to be more education to men to stop this kind of behaviour.

I also believe (not that I condone) that even if a young girl is wearing inappropriate clothing and sexualising herself doesn't mean that is an invitation to anyone!!!!!

[Trillian]

Krisvee, I don't think that is something that anyone can educate against - men who are paedophiles are often like that because it's the way their brain is wired - they sexually desire children just as you or I would sexually desire a man and that is why you also cannot rehabilitate them and they keep offending.

[Krisvee]

Trillian - That is so scary...surely they can be taught to manage they're behaviour though?????

[Trillian]

Well I guess that's what they mean by the term 'rehabiliation' - they can't truly make these people stop their feelings because that would be like telling us to stop desiring men and that desiring men is wrong kwim, but they can try to teach them that it's wrong and how to control their feelings but it's why they remain such a risk to children when they are not in jail. That's my take on it anyway

[nelly]

I have just reading this whole thread and a few things have jumped into my mind ... and they will be jumbled as I am typing as I think ....

Sun protection aside, why can't girls and boys just run around in bather bottoms? We did and we have stacks of nude pictures of us as kids playing on the beach. All we cared about was the beach. Pedophiles will find children attractive in paper bags. Back to the sun issue though - Thankfully there are the once piece swimsuits around for kids with high sun protection and my son does wear one - but once again the boys ones are BLACK!!!!! A great colour to wear in the sun!

I have a 2yo son whose favourite colour at the moment is pink and his favourite movie is Tinkerbell. We go shopping and he is allowed to choose his yoghurt and is torn between Tinkerbell and Nemo. He wears pink and apricot polo shirts (thank goodness for cotton on and colour) as well as blue, green etc, and has a couple of baby dolls and dress up clothes and necklaces. He is a sweet, sensitive boy who prefers to play with the girls or with other gentle boys. Don't get me wrong - he loves rough play with his Dad too, sleeps in a Thomas bed and is obsessed with his trains and cars. He also has a play kitchen in his room and guess what all of his boy friends play with when they come over... the kitchen and his necklaces. We were always conscious of not "boying" him and trying to get him a balance of "boy" and "girl" toys - but do you know what he said the other day when we were looking at a toy catalogue ... " not those mummy they are girl toys" ... bcos of that pink for girls and dark for boys. It is so hard to buy him toys that aren't spiderman, the HUlk or TMNT or Princesses and Dora. His favourite wiggles character is Dorothy Dinosaur but can I find him something that isn't blatantly "girly".

I have just had a daughter so I guess I am about to experience the flip side of the coin. She wears her brothers clothes and looks stunning in blue and green, and is often mistaken for a boy bcos she is blue or green.

There is one thing that peeves me to the core and that is the girlfriend / boyfriend tag when they are only 2! DS had a sleepover at one of his friends house when DH and I had a function to go to - his friend was a girl - and they slept in the same room. I was telling someone about his sleepover and one comment was " gosh you better be careful he's starting early". WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He is 2 FFS.

I guess what I am trying to say is that as parents WE can sexualise and gender stereotype our children before society even gets to them. How many little girls will get a toy vacuum for xmas and the boys a toy tool bench from their parents? We dress them, we begin their education every time we buy a toy, book, video or piece of clothing.

[Gigi]

Thankfully there are the once piece swimsuits around for kids with high sun protection and my son does wear one - but once again the boys ones are BLACK!!!!! A great colour to wear in the sun!

BRIGHT BOTS sell coloured sunsafe suits for boys that aren't black. They have their own website, or you can buy them IRL at stockists, such as the AntiCancer Council Shop in your state.

It is so hard to buy him toys that aren't spiderman, the HUlk or TMNT or Princesses and Dora. His favourite wiggles character is Dorothy Dinosaur but can I find him something that isn't blatantly "girly".

I have just had a daughter so I guess I am about to experience the flip side of the coin. She wears her brothers clothes and looks stunning in blue and green, and is often mistaken for a boy bcos she is blue or green.

I guess what I am trying to say is that as parents WE can sexualise and gender stereotype our children before society even gets to them.

We dress them, we begin their education every time we buy a toy, book, video or piece of clothing.

i agree with you NELLY. every time we make a purchase, it's a political decision. we are voting with our dollars.

my DD looks great in blue and green too (blue eyes, blond hair). she's 35 months, and it's only been the last few months i've stopped getting the "what a lovely little boy you have" type comments (her hair took ages to grow and i hardly ever have her in pink).

i am finding it easier to buy presents for my DD from places other than toysrus and the usual kmart/bigw/target type sources. that way, i can avoid the gender crap/ the franchising stuff. so now i look online at ecotoys, bumblebeetoys, dragonflytoys, edex (a site that supplies kindies and schools) and type in "organic toys" "wooden toys" "fairtrade toys" into google and see what comes up. You get toys that are much more "open ended" meaning the child is free to use their imagination when they play with them.

for my DD's 3rd birthday, i'm going to look at toddler friendly stuff at a craft supplies shop (to encourage painting). i have also made a decision to not have battery powered toys for her. The noise stresses me out, those toys make her very passive and robotic. Esp the musical ones, instead of "playing" an instrument (with batteries), she just pushes buttons frenetically, not even waiting to hear what sounds come out, just pushing buttons for the sake of it. WHen she uses a real drum, (soft bongos) she enjoys hearing the sounds SHE makes on it.

of course, non plastic toys DO cost more, but i have come to the conclusion "less is more". Less number of toys bought, but better quality. (plus the thought that every plastic toy, is made out of petroleum, really puts me off too, i don't want more petroleum fumes in our home).

i would love my nearly 3 DD to play with your DS and his kitchen, it would be nice NOT to hear the boyfriend/girlfriend stuff! i hear that too. so inappropriate and unnecessary. Their age group LOVES the "home corner" at childcare, no wonder he loves his kitchen. good on you for giving him that freedom, i hear so many parents DENY their children various play experiences, due to the PERCEIVED idea of what THAT particular gender SHOULD be playing with. i think those parents have just been successfully brainwashed (by toysrus etc) into what their children "should" be playing with.

[bon]

I can safely say I have never, and will never, buy my girls a toy vacuum, or any other housework related toy. They do have a little toy kitchen, and all my kids like to play with it. I loved my little kitchen toy that I had when I was little.

[nelly]

It's funny tho Bon bcos I feel similarly - when we go to visit a friends her little boy has 2 two vacuums and the boys love tearing around the house helping mummy. That puts me in a quandary bcos Jake is getting a vacuum from her for his birthday but does than mean that DD isn't allowed to play with it? hmmmmm am I going over board?

[Trillian]

Nelly, let them play with what they want to play with, not what is forced on them by only being told what to play with kwim? Kids will play with toys regarless of what 'gender' they are for because kids love toys fullstop and will investigate what they do and how they work regardless of whether it is a tonka truck or a doll. You see that a lot ot playgroup/preschool etc and there are just as many boys dressing up and playing with the dolls as there are girls riding bikes and playing in the sand pit. I think I may have said this in an earlier post in this thread (if not this one certainly one of the other threads similar to this) but for our DD2's 4th birthday last year we got her a John Deere front end loader because that's what she wanted and we weren't going to tell her no, she couldn't because it wasn't a girls toy. I think if you just let them be kids, and not mini versions of ourselves then you can't go wrong kwim because kids aren't born with gender bias - it's something that's imposed on them as they grow.

[nelly]

Nelly, let them play with what they want to play with, not what is forced on them by only being told what to play with kwim? Kids will play with toys regarless of what 'gender' they are for because kids love toys fullstop and will investigate what they do and how they work regardless of whether it is a tonka truck or a doll. You see that a lot ot playgroup/preschool etc and there are just as many boys dressing up and playing with the dolls as there are girls riding bikes and playing in the sand pit. I think I may have said this in an earlier post in this thread (if not this one certainly one of the other threads similar to this) but for our DD2's 4th birthday last year we got her a John Deere front end loader because that's what she wanted and we weren't going to tell her no, she couldn't because it wasn't a girls toy. I think if you just let them be kids, and not mini versions of ourselves then you can't go wrong kwim because kids aren't born with gender bias - it's something that's imposed on them as they grow.

spot on - yep know what you mean. Have a mix of toys rather than just "girl" or "boy" so they can direct their own play.

[Jellyfish]

I have been thinking about this a lot. I was just sitting in the shower shaving my legs and wondering when will I introduce this to my little girl... when will I buy her her first bra... what do you all think about these things? What is an appropriate time? What if all her friends are doing these things... can we introduce them in a healthy way even if we feel it might be a bit too soon?

Just curious. I have no answers. I find it hard not to look at it from a teenage point of view because the pressure of high school is so fresh in my mind but I am really enjoying and benefiting from this discussion.

[Trillian]

A bra is something that will need to be brought as soon as she has breasts - it's something you can't put off even if their breasts grow at a younger-than-average age because when they grow they can feel quite sore and having the support of a bra during that stage is essential IMO. I really needed a bra at 10, but I was so embarassed about the thought of wearing one that I just held off and refused to wear one and I was nearly 12 before I got my first one and I put up with the achiness. As for shaving legs, I started when I was 12, but I just did it and didn't tell anyone at all but Mum noticed about a month after I started. I know women who take their 9yr olds for leg waxing and that's too young IMO - I reckon a 'safe' guideline would be when their legs get too hairy looking or if they have really dark leg hairs

[Inanna]

Jitterbug as Trillian says - when she starts to grow breasts is the right time for a bra - it will happen organically. Some girls I know don't have breasts at 14 and others (like my DD) grew at 12 and she needed her first bras then.

As for shaving. Not all girls choose to shave - not all women shave! My DD was very hairy at 12 and she wanted to remove the hair. So I took her then for her first leg wax & underarm wax.

There is no "right" time for each child is individual. I had no hair on my legs or under my arms (at least very little and sparse) - AND I was a very free thinking teen so I refused to remove my hair!!! I do now but I didn't then. However, perhpas my decision would have been different had I had the thick dark hair of my DD...

[Jellyfish]

I guess these things are on my mind because I had a really negative experience relating to both. Have more to write but way too tired right now. I think you are both right, flexibility is important. I think as long as communication lines are open and there is trust and honesty, you can't go too wrong.

[Gigi]

whilst shopping for singlets for my nearly 3yo, i discovered there are BRALETTES in her size! Yes, size 2/3 bralettes (she wears that size in knickers) being marketted for toddlers.

i would like someone to show me some research that suggest some two year olds need bras! Whatever age my DD NEEDS a training bra, i will take her to get fitted. but i don't understand the bralettes that have zero support, are not there to actually DO anything, except make young girls imitate more developed girls.

As for the shaving legs thing, waxing legs thing, we struggle to pay the bills, i have no idea where money would come from, to pay for ME to wax my legs, let alone my DD.

i remember experiementing with it in highschool, had a part time job, so paid for my first leg wax, it hurt so much, i never went back. And i decided shaving was too much of a pain, needing to be done so often, and i hadn't the *****ly feeling of the regrowth. i think if i got to have smooth legs for a decent length of time, the payoff would have been worth it. but i thought it was too much effort, for very little payoff. Lucky for me, i didn't have dark leg hair, but i remember it beign a big deal for the dark haired girls at school (very obvious).

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

I am the girl with the 5 o'clock shadow and the moustache that boys were jealous of.

I am finally getting laser hair removal done on it. Underarms, bikini line and moustache. Just enough bikini line so I don't have a hairy (read: pubey) stomach or thighs, not the whole lot. Legs I can just epilate still. Wish I'd thought of this years ago and saved all that money on waxing: I must have spent enough on waxing to have paid for a third of the course! It's really quite cheap, I was expecting thousands and thousands and not at all.

Should I have a daughter who wants to remove the man-hair, I will find the money for waxing for her. And for her 18th, get her laser hair removal. This level of hair is not funny.

As for bras, either when she needs one or when all her mates are wearing one and she needs one socially. I still don't need a bra at all but believe me I wear one - with lots of padding! I like looking like I have a woman's body. Last time I went braless I also had rather short hair and was in trousers. I was asked if I was a boy or a girl by one young child (I also have a deep voice and the above-mentioned moustache). Never again.

As for boy/girl toys, DS will use a play kitchen as well as the real one. But prefers the toy trains unless all the other children are with the kitchen and he wants to play in a group. We have 99% "boy" toys because that's what DS picks and wants to play with. OK so he likes playing change the shoes and bags on the Barbies - but gets bored of that very quickly. Cars, on the other hand, hours of fun. Just one train and he's happy for days.