Are You Keyhole Judging? (An Edward de Bono inspired scenario)

[Inanna]

I agree totally Lulu.

I think strong opinions are healthy and fine. I also think we need to listen with all our faculties to others - for there is a lesson in ever moment & every footstep in life.

When we have strong opinions we need to check if they come from a sense of right ness or ego or weather they come from a healthy step by step place. For instance a strong opinion that says: "there is only one religion that is right"... Well that kinda argues with fact. There are lots of religions and is it right to judge anothers beliefs". Or only men should vote"... Why would that be so? If we adopt the opinions of society, our parents, our partners or our social network without thinking them through they have not been well thought out - they lack in substance...

When a person reacts strongly and defensively it's almost always from ego. We all do it - we all struggle with it (otherwise we would be enlightened! ). When we can hear an opinion and debate it with respect and kindness then we are on the right path (I believe).

[Trillian]

I have always been able to see both sides of the fence (or argument LOL) and for the most part I can be impartial. Sometimes it has gotten me in the poo when I have given the benefit of the doubt and it's bitten me on the bum, but you live and learn from it I guess. It's just not in me to sit on my smallish pony looking down on everyone else and judge them for what they do or do not do and one motto I live by is "they think their **** don't stink but their farts give them away", for me meaning that everyone has a backstory and first appearances aren't always the full picture of someone. I know it's a bit crass, but it's a great leveller I think to use such a phrase. Erin_25, I think that knowing that story helps you understand their POV - you can argue about something with someone till the cows come home, but it's much more productive to turn the argument into healthy debate simply by knowing why someone has the opinion they do or the reason behind why they do what they do. So 'justification' is essential in a lot of cases and if that helps you be understood better and enables someone to see a different perspective because often it's something you cannot assume about someone. And gaining respect is borne out of that too. I know there are a lot of times I've been a part of some raging debates on here and I don't always see eye to eye with some members, but knowing why they say what they say makes me respect why they have that opinion kwim? There are even people on here that I would probably never be friends with in a normal situation, but I respect them deeply becuase they have the strength of their convictions and more importantly are willing to agree to disagree.

lady Zaidee, using what you said as an example, I would never think that someone loved their child any less than what I love mine simply because they use a different method to me. I would see that it's not the love they have for their child that dictates why they do CC, but rather it might be their absolute last resort or that they simply don't know that it's not the best way kwim? I could never assume that they love doing cc, or that cc is their method of choice, because often there is a long and winding road that can lead you to make a decision that is different to what you would choose yourself. If I was talking to someone who said they started using cc, I would ask them why, and maybe even offer alternatives to that which they may not have thought of themseleves, because not everyone has the scope of advice that we have on here and even if after talking to them and finding out that it is simply their preferred method, then I could never judge them for it, lest I be judged for what I do just because it's different.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Trillian, I should explain - I've had a LOT of people in the last few months telling me to CC Liebs because I "look tired". And when I politely say no, I don't agree with that, they then tell me they did it from birth and the child doesn't know any different (how sad!) and you "get used" to hearing crying and ignoring it. They have NEVER gone to their baby, toddler or child at night, no matter what. Some people from birth, some from 6w old, some from 3m old. But generally too early, even in the pro-CC books. And I'm sick of hearing that they deprive their baby (because overnight feeds are still needed at this stage) because they can't be bothered with looking after this little life they created.

Now, if you're going to push your philosphy so much at me even when I say no, I disagree, then I figure you KNOW I'm right and just want to drag me down to your level! So yeah, I do judge then.

But I think that's about the only time. And only because I have it pushed on me so much to do it.

[Inanna]

I think it's always always important to share opinions. I think it's important to listen, I think it's important to use compassion. However, to sit on the fence might be an opinion too!

I understand LZ what you are saying. However, letting it go and saying no firmly... No, I am not interested in that method - it does not fit my ethos or my values - thankyou for sharing it though...

You have stated your strength and rejected what they want to impart... That is all good and well and healthy.

[mrsmac]

Great post Bath amd so relevant too. I have become less judgemental as i got older but I think sadly I was at my MOST judgemental when i had one child! I used to look in horror at mother's of little boys who were completely wild and, I felt, undisciplined, I felt that as a mother I had the right to judge cause I was obviously doing such a great job and my child was sweet and well behaved. Now that my journey has included a severe dose of karma (I call him Riley LOL) I realise that boys and indeed all children are different and I wasn't necessarily a great mum I was just a damn lucky one!
I think its harder to be empathetic without a lot of life experiences behind you. Sometimes i think the people with the least life experiences are often the most quick to judge sadly.

[Rouge]

I'm one of those strange people that gets offended and defensive for others but not so much for myself unless I am feeling unheard or misunderstood. And yes sometimes I shouldn't, and yes sometimes I should keep my mouth shut LOL! But I always seem to justify it at the time by saying I'm doing it for the greater good, and sometimes even that is not necessarily a good thing. So thats something I have to work on.

[Maruschke]

I'm one of those strange people that gets offended and defensive for others but not so much for myself unless I am feeling unheard or misunderstood. And yes sometimes I shouldn't, and yes sometimes I should keep my mouth shut LOL! But I always seem to justify it at the time by saying I'm doing it for the greater good, and sometimes even that is not necessarily a good thing. So thats something I have to work on.

Yep I used to do this too . I try not to though because I've realised that different things offend different people.

Recently, I was having a friendly debate with a close friend. We both know each other well, know each other's opinions, and use debate to sharpen ourselves (iron sharpens iron). In this case he was playing devil's advocate with me. Another friend who didn't know us as well, came into the debate and got mad at my close friend for saying something that she considered would have been offensive to me. But of course it wasn't!!!

I found it annoying. The statement wasn't offensive to me. It interferred with a debate that had good intentions (to sharpen our thinking) and then it took awhile to explain. It also made an innocent debate between two friends into an overly emotional event. Even if I did find his comment offending, I would have wanted to choose for myself how to respond. Sometimes it's easiest to just let it slide, ignore it.

I understand there are some situations were it is very appropriate to defend another against offense, but I try (and often fail) to pause and consider first whether or not I know enough to be able to do so.

[Moondance]

It's interesting that this topic is here in BB Forums...
As I really did feel like I was a victim of Keyhole Judging last night in the BB Chat of all places...

It's like, 2 people in the chat, who I've spoken to ONCE, seemed to think they knew everything about me and were telling me how to live my life, based on what was a half hour long chat. I ended up in tears. They kept telling me, "you need therapy, you need help" ra ra ra, when I was trying to say to them, that the past 4 months I have been doing well up until about 3 days ago when my emotions went a bit shonky (which I am currently thinking may be hormonal, as AF is due any day now), but they couldn't seem to grasp the concept, kept telling me how to live, how to think, how to be, until I got upset and said I didn't want to discuss it anymore. How was that for taking control, topic over.
So then they started getting uppity saying I couldn't control other people and one of the girls wanted to continue it until I ended up just getting very upset and saying stupid things to make them go away. They got angry with me and left.
One of these 2 people had added me as a facebook friend, and they've already deleted me this morning.

Based on ONE conversation from what little they learned of me in that conversation.
Yeah, I understand the person going on at me has a wealth of experience, more than me, with kids and a divorce, etc etc, but her situation isn't MY situation and all she wanted to do was push her way on me without listening to my side of things.
I still have a splitting headache today from crying so much. She dredged up a lot of crap, my therapist doesn't even make me cry like that.
I've never felt so judged, or pushed down in my whole life.

[Tinsel]

I like that a lot!

[BellyBelly]

I don't know what's happened, I will check the logs, but I don't think it's fair to label the actions of a few as the philosophy behind BellyBelly. If we don't say it, it's not our philosophy.

It's impossible for everyone to conform to everything. We have report features for problems, we log all chats (yes even the private messages between two users in chat, so keep it off the site if you want it private). If you can't say something nice or constructive, don't say it on BB, simple.

We do our best, as mothers, as full time workers, as workers with several jobs... we can only rely on members pointing us to what we've missed, and for members to take responibility for their contributions and acting like adults - that means making comments and also being able to react as one too.

More investigation is required, but I am sure you'll find BB is much different to the other sites out there, we do our best, but we cannot control what comes out of people's mouths... we offer services which do not have 24x7 live monitoring, that would be impossible and unfair to our mods. So we have to deal with issues in an appropriate way.

[nickle730]

This is an interesting thread, and I'm glad it has been resurrected!

In regard to the original post and EdB's key hole scenario - doesn't the world need people who are prepared to make a decision and act upon the information which is available to them?

To use EdB's scenario, the bloke looking through the keyhole could step back and think... "hmmm, hang on a minute. Do I have ALL the possible information here? Perhaps I should hang around here outside the door and keep watching, and I'll not take action until I'm certain that I know everything there is to know about this situation." Or he can accept the information that has available to him and choose the best and most appropriate course of action based upon that information, which in this case is to break down the door. After all, his information leads him to believe that a life is in danger. He must act, and quickly.

Now, as it turns out, the bloke in EdB's story had drawn an inaccurate conclusion from the information available to him. But what if his original assessment of the situation was correct? And here he is, hanging around outside the door, waiting for more information whilst the woman he saw is stabbed to death?!

Sometimes, it is necessary to make a 'keyhole judgement'. Sometimes, the only view we have is what we can see through a keyhole. The danger is in not being capable of reassessing a situation, of not having the flexibility to change our opinion and assessment of a given situation as more information becomes available. Certainly, we should strive to further our knowledge of a situation, we should gather as much information as we can before making a decision and formulating a plan, but we must also be prepared to be decisive in our actions. The trick is to keep an open mind as we do so. I reckon EdB's bloke did an awesome job; he observed, he made a decision, he acted, he reassessed and he made a new decision based on the new information available to him. Can't ask for more than that!

Just to be very clear... I am referring to the original post and EdB's scenario. I am not in any way referring to other BB threads, or to Moondance's experience.

[Trillian]

Trillian, I should explain - I've had a LOT of people in the last few months telling me to CC Liebs because I "look tired". And when I politely say no, I don't agree with that, they then tell me they did it from birth and the child doesn't know any different (how sad!) and you "get used" to hearing crying and ignoring it. They have NEVER gone to their baby, toddler or child at night, no matter what. Some people from birth, some from 6w old, some from 3m old. But generally too early, even in the pro-CC books. And I'm sick of hearing that they deprive their baby (because overnight feeds are still needed at this stage) because they can't be bothered with looking after this little life they created.

Now, if you're going to push your philosphy so much at me even when I say no, I disagree, then I figure you KNOW I'm right and just want to drag me down to your level! So yeah, I do judge then.

But I think that's about the only time. And only because I have it pushed on me so much to do it.

Oh no, I didn't mean anything by it, just that if you were told a one-off comment like that, without knowing all the stuff behind it, then I wouldn't think less of them for it, but when there is a lot of other stuff going on, manipulation by trying to force you to see it their way and constantly being told that it is the right and the only way, then yeah, I'd be thinking less of them for that too because they aren't showing you respect and agreeing to disagree.

[Bathsheba]

Bumpity bump!

[Liz]

oooh Bath has spied some keyhole judging... I wonder where LOL

[Cassius2]

i think this is a great topic, especially when we consider the forum environment. in a way forums like BB etc can promote and seek keyhole judging. like bath in her OP, not everyone shares all information, making the 'advice' or support that we give, inevitably some form of keyhole judging...but does this necessarily equate to a negative thing? i guess EDB's story is awesome in that it does make us think outside the square, but we also need to remember that in an isolationist society (like most western societies) we do tend to put on the blinkers and *pretend* that we dont see or hear other people (like NOT giving pg women a seat on a tram or train, because you have an ipod on and therefore 'cannot' see her; or hear a smoke alarm next door but are too hesitant to call the firebrigade in case it's nothing and you look over zealous IYKWIM).

i guess the key (pardon the pun LOL!) is that while we judge...i reckon everyone does (or am i speaking only of my own guilt at having done so..hmmmm lol) we also need to judge with empathy. the same way that awhile back we had the horrific story of the tragic death of those twins in QLD that died through starvation. it was horrific and initially people were outraged as we vented and expressed our horror, but as the thread progressed and we began to develop empathy for all those people involved in the horrific situation we realised how it could of happened and possibly why. i still believe that that thread ended up being one of the most powerful on here in BB land for that very reason.