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I appreciate your posts and very much doubt that you are boring or have problems with emotions. :):
All the posts here are my MIL, its spooky! Though she still has lots of contact with the kids, that's mostly because I deal with her and DW can avoid her. I have been quite upfront with her in the past which has caused all kinds of problems (like any dealings with a NP) but on the upside she is slightly scared of me and behaves herself.
It's a very difficult situation!
Thank you everyone for posting in this thread. I am sorry to hear about all your experiences, but in a way I am glad that I am not the only one who grew up with these experiences.
My dad has pretty much openly admitted that he would rather that I worked in a profession that made him look good rather than me being happy. When I was younger, he would force me to let him help me with my homework (when I didn't need help and was fine on my own), and would get hugely offended and angry when I refused the help ("but I am doing all this for you, look how much I am helping, I am taking time out for you, and you are ungrateful for not wanting it, etc...) He also regularly plays my brothers and sister and me against each other, e.g. "did you know that H said .... about you..." (when H said no such thing), etc.
Because of growing up like this I have zero self esteem. I have had issues with anxiety (not diagnosed, but to the point that other people have pulled my up on my OCD behaviour), as well struggling with substance abuse. It is really hard for me now, as DH suffers from mental illness and a lot of the time asks unreasonable things of me (e.g. asking to drive the car when he is drunk), and if I say no (which in the above example any sane person would), I feel soooo guilty and feel like I need to make it up to him for refusing his request.
My dad also has issues with overweight people. I am in no way overweight now, but I am still not fit enough apparently, and playing and running around with DD in the park is not exercise, I NEED to go to a gym. Funny, when I actually used to go to the gym and enjoy it, my dad didn't consider that good enough either. It seemed to me that as long as it was something that I didn't enjoy, then and only then was it suitable exercise...
MIL is an atheist so no church group involvement but her latest best friend is always some poor person with a sad story that she met last week. She's also good at being there for relatives she hasn't seen in 20 years who then seem to always do something that means she won't talk to them much again. She took in students for a while to 'mother' (I think to prove the issues with her own kids clearly had nothing to do with her, because look how much she was willing to do for these strangers' children!).
Friendships/relationships in her life don't tend to last long. And she uses other people's faith/belief to mock them (she doesn't need such a crutch). It's a perceived intellectual superiority on her part. She so far keeps her criticism of my faith to herself, but I think she doesn't know what to say around DD.
I wrote a massive reply and then accidentally closed the window rather than pressed reply :doh:
MM, I struggled with the issue of not knowing whether NPD's understood what they were doing and whether it was right for us to go non contact with MIL if she didn't understand. I think it is a bit like a psychopath who becomes a serial murderer though - just because there is a mental illness doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. I think they do understand right from wrong and that having a disorder is not an excuse to do whatever they like. I found this link particularly useful - What Makes Narcissists Tick: Hurting You Isn't Something Narcissists Do by Accident
Also if you are starting to feel a bit guilty about things, this link is also good - Feeling Guilt - Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers
My MIL also claims to have no idea what she has done to us. We wrote it all out for her in email after email. Once we went no contact, we started emailing for a bit to see if we could work it out - that was before we knew about the NPD. She emailed back and the emails are really interesting to look at now that we understand NPD. At the time, they were infuriating and no-one else could see why we were so angry about the things she wrote, but I can see NPD behaviour riddled throughout her emails now and it all makes sense to me. I don't feel angry anymore when I look back at her emails because I understand what was going on and I can see what she was trying to do. But she still tells anyone who will listen that she has no idea why she can't see her son and her grandchildren.
We asked them in one of our emails what they expected from a relationship with us and her response was 'to be able to love you unconditionally?' but then went on to list that seeing us at Christmas and on birthdays, to be allowed to give us presents, to receive gifts from us, to be able to show that they loved us however they liked were all part of their 'unconditional love'. They couldn't see, though goodness knows we tried to explain, that those things are all conditions. And we knew from the past, that as soon as we gave them those seemingly little things (I say seemingly because there was nothing little about accepting those things from them ... they made it out like they were opportunities for them to give to us but it was really just opportunities for us to celebrate MIL and all her wonderfulness :sick:) that there would be more and more and more to follow.
By the time we worked out MIL had NPD, we come to the conclusion by ourselves that they held us and DH's siblings responsible for their happiness. They were never going to be happy because they depended too much on us to do it for them and whenever we fulfilled anything they asked us to do, there was always more that they expected from us. It was never ending.
Starfish - My Dad is similar in some ways to yours. His thing was apologising. He would do awful things to me as a kid/teenager. He would provoke me until I snapped and he got a reaction and then he would punish me. It would turn into a massive argument which usually ended in my sitting in my crying for ages. When he was ready, he would come into my room like some kind of superhero and offer something that resembled an apology except it was more along the lines of 'I'm ready to forgive you now'. If I ever told him to go away because I wasn't ready to talk, he would fly into an absolute rage and tell me he would never forgive me and never forget and then come up with new and even crueller ways to punish me. I was completely at his mercy because I was so dependent on my parents for everything. I had been conditioned from a young age that I needed them. Even as a child I was told that if I ever ran away from home if they caught me they would drag me back home and beat me black and blue to teach me to never run away again. It's only been very recently that I realised how incredibly abusive that was and if you liken it to an abusive relationship between a man and a woman, it would be obvious. Because it was parent to child, the same rules don't seem to apply, though I think they should.
My dad also has body issues but he is on the opposite end of the spectrum. He is morbidly obese. We are not allowed to mention his weight at all. He seriously thinks that he could be a model. But if we even so much as say the word 'fat' around him, he loses it. Even if we aren't saying it in relation to him. I once said about something on TV "That's a big fat lie" and got grounded for a week and he didn't speak to me at all.
Many of our arguments happened around him saying really cruel and awful things to me "You are not a nice person. You are only nice when you want something." or "I have never met anyone as selfish as you in all my life", "I hope when you have children, they are as horrible to you as you are to me and then you will know how I feel". If I ever tried to argue and say that I wasn't those things, he would tell me that he is the adult so he gets the last word in an argument and I need to walk away quietly and then he would say whatever it was again so I could walk away quietly. I would and then he would wait a couple of minutes and obviously because I never rose to the occassion, he would come and find me and would push me until I argued back with him and eventually he would ground me for some ridiculous amount of time. He bullied me for years and it has done terrible things to my self esteem. I can still see so many of my thought patterns are influenced like that and I have to make such a conscious decision to not keep believing some of the things I learned through those experiences.
SAHD - My dad is completely intimidated by my DH like your MIL is by you. It's great but I still have lots of issues when DH isn't around. My dad also tries the same things that he did to me on my kids but he has no authority over them and they know it so he gives up. Kids are so smart - they know and they just roll their eyes and walk away.
Sparklez - I think everyone shows some N behaviours at one point or another. It's human nature to be a little bit egotistic. I think the difference is that N really don't care about anyone but themselves. They only show love and affection when they are going to get something out of it. You may show more N tendencies than normal if that is the example you were set as a child, but I think that the lack of empathy and focus on self as the motivation for everything you ever do would be the things that set a person with NPD apart from just a normal person with N tendencies. Does that make sense? I show lots of N tendencies too but I don't believe that I have NPD. My DH also shows them as well but I don't think he has NPD either. They are learned behaviours that once we realise we do we try and change and we do change over time. A person with NPD doesn't ever really change. The same issues they have now with relating to other people will still be the same 5 years from now and they were they same 5 years ago.
Eugh. I'm a dreadful daughter. My mother called me on Wednesday to tell me so. ...
Well done on finishing uni! Thats awesome! Best feeling in the world hey :D And we're all proud of you even if your parents are being douchebags about it :hug:
And also... ummm you didn't miss fathers day at all. So you might want to let your mum know that!
Fathers day here is the first Sunday in SEPTEMBER. It was fathers day in the USA this week (I think) but not Australia. So, unless you're in the US, you missed a big fat load of nothing - You would have seen things in the junk mail or on the TV, or heard it on the radio no matter how busy you were if it were fathers day.
... But as I have had no time to sit and watch TV, I haven't noticed the adverts, if there were any. And, of course, didn't get the reminders from the internet as I use a parenting forum that isn't in my home country so my parents can't track me down as easily on-line.
But yeah, I did get rather drunk last night to celebrate. It was fun.
JM I dont think my mum understands her actions or behaviour are wrong. She may say she does and even apologise but she does it so she can see her grandkids.
What made me realise the extent of her problems was when she made a huge fuss on my 30th about not being involved in planning the surprise dinner on the beach I talked to my mil. She mentioned my mum had issues and she was wary of her after she told her how she told my dad not to come to see me after I had been in a serious car accident 6 years earlier. My mum had always told me my dad's wife had said he couldn't go in the car with my mum. At this stage they thought I had to be airlifted to Melbourne. I had a strained relationship with my dad and his wife after the accident and it was all based on lies.
I confronted my mum and she denied telling him not to come even in counseling, she said my dad and mil must be lying and how could I believe them over her. That was when the counsellor said she would never change and would always be controlling.
It was an eye opener and I certainly don't trust her. I let her have limited contact with the kids in the past when she watched the girls she wouldn't change their nappies, and would lie and say they had just pooed or tell me they ate a lot and wouldn't explain bumps.
I finally have a much better relationship with my dad, and I know not to believe my mum's gossip. Just have to work on my self esteem still and get healthy for my kids.
Ps congrats FB! Don't worry about father's day it's just something else your mum is focussing on if it wasn't that it would be something else.
My mother is particularly obsessed with father's day and liking to pretend we all have a happy family. When in actual fact, our Dad was never there for us, he was verbally abusive, and, as Ive also said - has traits of NPD but also other things. He had long term affairs...lied to the family - has other children for all we know. The list goes on. I always find father's day hard because I never really want to do anything. I dont have a proper relationship with my Dad - we both know it, yet we play the game. Mum usually tries to get in first - locking us in to a big family lunch well ahead of time before I have time to remember to assert myself.
My mum likes to hog all major events - Christmas, mother's day, etc. She locks people in really early. My in-laws only have my husband as their only son and they aren't very assertive - they seem to be the opposite of my mum, never wanting to impose, will have us whenever we are free - I feel sorry for them as they usually get the shorter end of the stick. My mum has a really good way of manipulating the situation to find out that there is nothing we have planned with DH's family and she swoops in and gets us at the right time...I just cant explain how clever she is at it..I fall for it a lot. She invites my inlaws to things so that way she can guarantee everything is at her house, on her terms, and she gets to be the big hero who has the whole family over etc. Its so controlling!!!! She has us all fooled. My brother, his wife and kids would rarely see my SIL's side of the family - they are ALWAYS at mum's every major event, her family takes a back seat too. Mum gets first dibs on everything - even baby sitting, pet sitting, etc - if she can do it, mum has to be the one to do it - she offers so you cant say know and is quite accommodating. Might sound good on the surface, but its another form of control. I think its her way of blackmailing all of us to do what she wants. Because then she is able to say "look at everything I do for you - the least you could do is spend Christmas day at my house"...etc etc
A few things in what you said rings true, except ours aren't the grandkids that get shown off. I have photo galleries of the kids online that they have the address for and I don't think they look at them - they have one or two very average and extremely out of date photos of our kids while I have all these lovely recent ones on the website.:
The few times we visit she talks about the *other* child. The *other* child's spouse. The *other* grandkids. They ask the occasional token question about us and then instantly direct conversation to similar topics about the *other* grandkids. They see us once every several months but still manage to not take photos of us, despite not *having* photos of us. Their house is jam packed with photos of the *other* grandkids. They rarely call or visit. Once she visited on my birthday and talked about some friend (dunno who this friend is) who died of cancer - in extreme detail. When we do visit we either get ignored or we get snide, subtle, hurtful insults followed by "only kidding!". She only came up with a 'grandmother' name when the other grandchildren were born, which means all of my kids call her by her first name, and all the other grandparents get called grandma etc.
Dunno why we bother. Everyone else in the family rings or visits quite often, wants to know what we are doing etc etc. We're going to be crippled by lack of transport very soon now and I expect everyone else to continue to ring and visit and us to just ... not see that family member again, unless they actually visit us. And we've discussed this and pretty much come to the conclusion that we're not going to be missing out on anything. We already know we don't meet the 'proper' socially acceptable definition of a family unit and thus probably aren't good to show off to the ladies at social luncheons.
I honestly don't think they realise they do it. My partner hasn't got the guts to discuss it with that family member, I don't think its my place, so we've just decided to completely stop talking to them and visiting and see what happens. So far, absolutely nothing has happened. Not even a mention when we missed mother's day. Why would they notice us going silent? They have *other* grandkids ...
Cjane my mum is like that too, but now I am wiser and have kids I am stronger and dont give her a chance to take control. She keeps up a fuss but I stay firm, she always had to have christmas at her house so my dad missed out, but now there are grandkids I don't want them missing out on being with all their family.
I have decided to ring my local GP to discuss things with him and see what recommendations he can make. I just don't know what to say when I sit down with him. Sopdet gave me some great ideas when she visited, but I am really worried I am going to come across completely nuts even if I say something along the lines of :
"I was having a discussion recently about the problems mum and I seem to have continuously and it was suggested I do some reading into Narc Parents. When I did read up on Narc parents my mother ticked quite a few boxes and I suspect she has an undiagnosed NPD, now that I am aware of the problem quite a lot of the torments I have faced over the years suddenly make sense. I am just wondering where do I go from here?"
I just don't know how that would be received and I am scared I am going to come across as nuts as mother and father and all the relo's and all the close family friends that I have not seen in years, think I am.
Help
Nae
OH Side note Just Me (and others) I have a question ... is it normal for Narcs to do something like this? ..... A few years ago my uncle and his fam were coming down for a visit. First I was told it would be a fri, sat, sun stay and I mentioned this to mum and she emailed me to say that they'd be down Tues, Wed, Thurs so I swapped my shifts so I had the TWT off work. I had emailed uncle but as he rarely reads emails Mum was kind of the go between. I sent uncle an email saying that I had swapped the shifts. 3 days before that weekend mum rang and said they were looking forward to the weekend and I remember arguing with her about the fact that I had changed my roster because she told me they were coming through the week instead. She flatly denied the email and told the family I had organised the shifts for when they visited which was SO not the way I work. I ended up so confused over the matter that went back through all my deleted sent emails but it must have been permanently deleted I couldn't find any from around that date so without any proof I doubted my recollection. Even now I second guess myself, but I know how much I was looking forward to their visit so it doesn't sound like something I would do in that situation.
ANYHOO
what do I say to the Dr? I am so worried I am going to come across nuts but I feel I need to do this not just for my own peace of mind but so I CAN actually say if questioned that I HAVE seen someone about my mental state *cough*
Nae - My mum flat out denies things as well. I know that feeling of second guessing yourself very well, "Is that really what happened, maybe she's right" and so on. I think it's important to trust my instincts, I know what she said even if she wont acknowledge it.
Perfectly normal Nae. My MIL has sent us emails saying one thing and when we question her, she says the opposite. We have the emails to prove it and she still denies it or says that we misunderstood.
There are a couple of things going on in that situation with your mum. The first is gaslighting ... Gaslighting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (because believe it or not there is actually a name for it) and the second is triangulation ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangulation_(psychology) except in your situation, she has set herself up to be the third party. She probably really enjoys being in the middle of all family relationships because that is how she maintains control.
With the GP - I think it depends what your GP does and doesn't know about NPD. If you have a good GP that you trust definitely bring it up with him/her, otherwise maybe you could just ask for a referral to a psychologist that specialises in family relationships. Just tell him that you have issues from your childhood and you have ongoing anxiety and you would like to talk to someone about it. Just a thought anyway if you are worried about telling your GP about NPD. The thing is, if you come across nuts to the GP, you are still likely to get a referral which is the main thing. Just a thought anyway :)
Yup Nae, my mum does that too. Or she'll agree to a date to do something then turn around and say she would never agree to that date and say she agreed to a different one.
Or she'll say she's asked me to do something, or told me something X amount of times and she never said anything. At least my dad would back me up in those cases and confirm that I was actually right and she never said anything about said thing to anyone.
Yup, my mother does that too. I have a very good memory, most encounters with her are stored as a script and I can quote her back. Sadly few others can. I also keep all e-mails. Sadly she lies to others about things I have said, which makes it a bit harder. Also, if I tell her any "big" news it is a race to ring round all the relos because she tells them first. Hence her not being told when we get a house until after we move and not ever being told anything about a pregnancy if it happens again. I have been really hurt by this! (But am going to tell the people she calls "nasty, secretive" relatives just to share it with family!)
Finally jumping into this thread.
I grew up thinking my mother either had a very bad memory or just hated being wrong. If she was caught out on a breaking a promise, she would get so mad and say I was making things up. Gee, I forget things with the girls, but if I realise, I say sorry and make it up if I can.
My gut feeling is that they do have a memory problems and the NPD just wont let them admit it. It is very sad, as my mother developed very bad dementia (the worst the social workers had seen in a women her age). It was hard for us to pick up as the forgetting things was normal, her being self obsessed was normal (narcissism is a trait that often appears with alzheimers).
I have such mixed feelings about NPD. Yes, I believe my mother suffered from it, but I do believe that she was almost a split personality, there were glimpses of the decent person at times, but then there was the NPD one. I know in my heart that NPD brought on her dementia so early and so bad. My mother had been diagnosed with severe depression in her later years, combine that with the NPD (her not admitting that there was anything wrong) and in the end her brain just fried itself.
Oh Astrid, that's so sad about your mum. My Grandma had alzheimers too. It was hard because we were so close and she slipped away a little bit at a time. She wasn't NPD though but did start to show some narcissistic traits but I think that was about survival. She wasn't mean but was very self focussed, I think she just had no idea what was going on. But I understand how hard it can be to see someone you love struggle with losing their memory (and pretty much their mind).
The link between alzheimers and NPD is interesting. I read somewhere that alzeheimers and age often cause the NPD to become more obvious because they lose all their inhabitions and forget about the little social ettiquette that they do have and so what they are really thinking becomes more obvious. I haven't had any personal experience with it but I thought it was an interesting article.
Nae - I agree with Justme - probably best to say to the GP that you are wanting a referral to a psych as you are feeling anxious and depressed. They will then do a mental health assessment with you and ask you a stack of questions about how you are feeling and rate you on a scale. They have to do this in order for you to qualify for the 6-12 sessions that you can then arrange for a rebate through Medicare. I think that is all that the GP needs to know - the psych is probably the best one to talk to about your experience with a narcissitic parent.
And yes also agree with the others. The way your mum reacted withyour uncles visit - something that many narcissitic parents would do. This is because they are jealous of relationships that others have, so it would suit her for you not to spend any special time with your uncle as she would feel as though firstly she has the potential to be left out, and secondly that you could form a closer bond with your family that excludes her and opens her up to the chance that you might talk about her.
So my mother and I have been getting along pretty well lately - quite to my amazement! She hasn't been calling anywhere near as often and its been great for our relationship.
But the other day she decides to ring and somehow we get onto the topic of when the babies will be born, and she said I should ask for them to be born on her birthday and how cool would that be...I won't even be 34wks by then! When I explain this to her, and how bad it would be for the babies to be born that early, she gets ****ty at me saying 'what would I know' and 'people do it all the time'. I don't know who 'people' are but I have a feeling they're either made up or idiots. And I thought we were making progress... :wall:
At least she's stopped nagging me for belly photo's for the moment. Urgh. It ****es me off so much when people ask me for belly photos.
She's coming to stay with us next weekend to help us settle into the new house. She was coming up here for work on the Friday anyway (so she says) and we will need the help so I'm hoping everybody will make it out alive come Sunday night!
I've just realised why I'm not hearing from my mother very much at the moment. One phone call a fortnight if I'm lucky.
[Sis has bigger things in her life than me atm]. I had a nice long chat with Sis about it all on Friday and said our mother was a narc - she agreed immediately! I am hoping it helps her. She still thinks our mother loves us - not for ourselves she doesn't, only as extentions of herself.
Oh SF :hug: that's awful about wanting the babies born so early so they would share her birthday. At least you have a valid excuse even if she doesn't think it is. Can you imagine if they had to share a birthday with her? She would probably like it for now but then she would probably be cranky that the attention is going to your kids on HER birthday. I hope her visit goes okay this weekend.
TFB - Your poor sister! At least you were able to have a good conversation with her and hopefully it bring her some relief. It is hard to come to terms with the idea that you have a parent that doesn't really love you - even if it makes complete sense and you know that it is true. She might come to understand better as time passes.
TFB your poor sister, my mum was the same and she has started to try and plan my brothers wedding and they aren't even engaged! I heard her talking to my dad at a dinner for my brothers gf this weekend so gave her a heads up, she was horrified!
I'm moving in with mum for the two weeks before the wedding just to take the pressure off my sister. Plus I promised last year I'd be on alert on the day itself and keep mum occupied and away from Sis. Much as it's a pain for me, it's worth it.
...
Oh, boy.
Hi.
Just been reading and thinking and reading and thinking.
FWIW, that EFT or 'tapping' is really, really good - probably spend the money doing it with an IRL practitioner, though. I did it with my HypnoBirthing teacher and at the end she asked if there were any other issues. I said I was scared of being like my mum (not that she's ALL bad, but definitely things I didn't want to pass on!) and we did EFT. What a weight loss program!
Anyhoo, lots of things are flooding my brain - my sister's wedding, DS's birth, DP and I getting together, my first 'boyfriend', when I decided to go against the way I was raised (ha ha!) and go clubbing, ummm...the list goes on, but it's not as extensive as some others'. She comes and goes on these things, it's not entirely consistent but I feel that she would if she were less aware.
She's a clinical psychologist. There-in lies a compounding factor - what would I know? I'm studying psych and every year I pass it's a matter of "well, you haven't learned yet about x,y,z", so that's why I couldn't possibly be right about such and such. I know she's scared of me being a psych, even though she's very supportive of me studying. Reading the website has shed light on some of this, though - I'm often the extension of her ("I wouldn't have done it that way" - ummm, cool, cos I'm not you) so she's proud that her daughter wants to study psych. She also knows that I tend to be very good at what I turn my attention to (even if my uni marks don't always reflect that ;P ). So, I believe she's scared that I'm onto her.
Lately she's been mentioning the need for us to 'have a real talk'. Apparently, there wasn't enough time the last time (phew!). I'm hoping, like last time, that I can keep things on an even enough keel that she doesn't see the need to push for this talk. There is no point. Even she will say "nothing changes even when we talk" - but that's designed to say it's MY fault nothing changes. Nothing changes because there's nothing wrong with her, that's what the problem is! So, now that I have been a bit more aware of her patterns and I've talked at length about this with my sister (the Golden Child, on a much lesser scale than on the website, and with reversed characteristics that are more in line with infantalising - I get the money and the things more than my sister does!), I feel I can fend off her criticisms and maneouvres better, without having to go through the crap that a 'talk' will bring up.
I have chosen to maintain contact. There are things I know about my mum, other things I have guessed at that she isn't aware of (she thinks she's right on top of those lies upon lies) that I won't tell her I know, that help me understand how she is the way she is. DP thinks that's making excuses. It's not. It's realising what I'm dealing with and that she's not gonna change unless she strips bare - and I'm afraid that something like that would do her in so much that she'd self-harm before she could rebuild herself. She is very damaged from an awful childhood in a developing country, and she had a similar relationship with her own mother - she passed while they were kind of unreconciled.
My mum's a raging Christian as well. Nuff said.
I DO believe she is capable of love and that it gets caught up in this program of survival she has sometimes, so that it's hard to tell. If she didn't have NPD she'd be dead. She would have suicided years ago. I do believe it has kept her alive because the child brain that developed this disorder had very little options and that's how it adapted.
But, yeah, I very much get the "No-one cares about my feelings" (Umm, no, they don't - I'm the one who just had a baby and you're sooking because you had your phone off - totally denied btw - and couldn't get DP's phone call - the one he made first in order to avoid this whole drama - to hear the news first....oh, and that plot thickens...can't be bothered anymore!), "You're selfish, inconsiderate, dramatic, defensive (I've been this for a very long time, and in fact I believe I have come to actually BE defensive because of being critiqued for so long) etc".
I won't go into it, you guys all know it from your own lives. Just to say "present" in this group. Would be good to have it as a PSG, cos I can't get round the idea that having it on a public area of the forum is a 'betrayal' - and I've had a whole lifetime of being told what has to stay within family, and covering lies and telling lies in order to keep ridiculous things in the family.
Is this possible, please? Just that a few of us are bound to give some details that could be more identifying (if you knew what to look for and were of stalkery material!), or that we'd much rather divulge knowing it was private.
Sorry to be in here with you girls, though I'm pretty glad I'm in great company :hug:
Nae - your mum and my mum, it's a mum-off!
Good idea, Mayaness - PSG sounds like a plan.
Ladies. This describes my mother to a tee. I have no contact and its healthier for me and my life. She was a pschiatric (sp?) nurse for 20 years and thinks shes got people believing her. Im upset with the fact iv never had and never will have a relationship with her. But its life unfortunately x
Sent From My Samsung Galaxy S I9000 By Tapatalk Xxx
im a bit behind
strawberryfields: i can't believe your mum thinks its a good idea for you to deliberately have your babies so early so they are born on her birthday !
the flying butter: what a lovely sister you are to move in with your mum for now and take the pressure off your sister, i hope she has a wonderful wedding day and it isn't spoiled by your mum
mayaness: interesting your mum is a psychologist, how does she not see what she is doing ? i too would like to see this as a PSG, i don't really like the idea of this thread coming up in a google search.......
how many of us here are no contact ? and if you are are you just "taking a break" and think you will be in contact in the future ? or is it a permanent decision ?
i am no contact, it is my birthday in a few days and im wondering if my mother is going to do something or just ignore it, puts me on edge actually
I think a PSG would be great. There is so much more that I haven't written here because I am worried about it coming up on a google search and I agree Maya, it does feel like betrayal to put it up. Even the stuff that I write in the members area feels like betrayal anyway ... I think it is all to do with the abuse though. I write it and it feels good to get it out and then I feel guilty, like I am bursting the bubble by saying things and so much effort has been put into maintaining the illusion.
Minnie Mouse - We have no contact with DH's parents but still have contact with mine because we feel like we can manage our boundaries. I wouldn't say our boundaries are respected, but they don't violate them just for funsies like DH's parents did.
This is how it has gone with DH's parents. In 2002 (we were 20 and had been married for a year), PIL manipulated us into giving up a lease on our house we were renting because they needed a house sitter for 5 weeks. I didn't want to do it, but we did. While we were house sitting we signed contracts to build our own home and it seemed like a good idea to live with them while that happened. It was horrible and while things between us were awful before that, living with them made it so much worse. I think it just sped up a process that was happening anyway, but it forced the envelope anyway. We lasted in their house two weeks after they got back before it was more than we could handle and we moved out.
Things got worse and we started setting boundaries - first it was that DH was not to leave me alone with PIL at any point, even to go to the toilet. MIL would launch into full scale attack the second she was alone with me. FIL would hug me and not let go. Because DH never left me alone from this point, I think it got to a point where they stopped waiting for him to leave the room and started doing it in front of him. When he saw what was actually happening he was horrified. We started by trying to talk to them about what was happening. In true NPD fashion - deny, blame, deny.
We set boundaries this time that we told them about - limited contact, told them when we did see them, they were not to touch us. Then they went to live in Germany for a year. When they returned we moved to Brisbane for two years and had very limited contact during that time. We did not have them stay in our house with us and they never came to see us anyway - they came down for other reasons, but not only to visit.
During this time MIL had developed a fetish for inventing weird spiritual reasons to pray over her kids and would wait until DH was alone with her before she needed to pass onto him a 'mantal'. New boundary: MIL is not to pray over DH at all.
We returned to living in the same town as them in 2006. We decided that we really wanted to work on our relationship with them. Managed one visit to their house and they came to our house once before we set the boundary - no visiting. At this point we needed to clarify our boundaries with them so we narrowed it down to three things - they were not to visit us in our home, we would not visit them in their home and they were not to touch us. We continued to work on our relationship with them. We started by laying it all out on the table. We thought it was good and we were doing the right thing by talking about it. In a way it got too much for me and we thought maybe DH could meet with them and work it out on his own.
MIL capatilised on the opportunity to meet with DH and started needing weekly meetings - I think she figured it was a great way to get DH all to herself without having to worry about his pesky wife coming along too. It was really unhealthy so he stopped meeting them in person. We also stopped celebrating Christmas and birthdays with them at this point because it was way too difficult.
At the end of 2006 I got pregnant with DD1. We continued to try and work things out with them - over the phone. We wanted to have it sorted before the baby came along as we didn't want her caught up in it all.
DD1 being born caused them to go into fight mode. I think they got desperate because they felt left out - we didn't have them visit at the hospital (in the end no-one did because I was only there 12 hours). We did give an exception to our boundary about them visiting us at home when DD1 was 2 days old. It was awful and we virtually kicked them out after 20 mins. They launched a full scale attack - calling people to call us and talk to us about them not having involvement with *their* granddaughter.
The card they wrote us when she was born said "We are pleased and priveledged to be grandparents to little M. We are excited about meeting her." It annoyed me at the time and now I know why. In true NPD fashion - no congratulations to us, just a comment to let us know that they were grandparents.
Anyway we decided at this point it was too stressful for us to have them as a part of our lives. They didn't respect our boundaries. In May 2007, we went no contact.
It took them a while to wrap their heads around that meaning that we didn't want them in our lives. About 2 months after we went no contact, we had DD1 dedicated. They weren't invited (actually they were on holidays and we did it at a time we knew there was no chance of them just turning up). They found out from friends when they got back and sent us this card as a congratulations for her dedication: "We were extremely saddened and hurt by not being included in this special celebration. Whatever the reason!!! We forgive you." It was stuck to a post it in the card because we have to keep up appearances.
Anyway, we just ignored them for about six months and then we felt ready to work on things again. They sent us emails every couple of weeks begging us to talk to them so we wrote back to one and said we felt ready to work on our relationship. We thought that rather than focussing on all the things of the past, we were better looking at the kind of relationship we wanted to build with them and started from there. We listed out our boundaries and told them what we expected in a relationship. They fought us every step of the way. They kind of agreed to our boundaries but not really, they said the only thing they expected from a relationship was 'to love [us] unconditionally' (which is completely not possible for them).
They asked us numerous times what they had done 'to deserve such harsh punishment' and constantly said they didn't understand. They took guesses at situations that had caused all of this and excused their behaviour in those situations and blamed us for not setting better boundaries with them. They looked to pin it on one incident so that they could blame, deny and eventually give something that resembled an apology but wasn't really. Narcissists will *apologise* eventually if you push them far enough into a corner but it isn't a real apology and usually it contains a sting of blaming someone else (usually the victim) entirely for their behaviour.
It got to a point of being ridiculous. We had written emails of how crazy they were and felt that it was all too much for us again. Those four weeks caused us so much stress, we decided to cut all contact again. We wrote and said we couldn't do it anymore and this would be the last time they hear from us.
We had no contact with them between November 2007 and December 2009. We hadn't realised how broad their 'spy' network was and told someone (who I thought was just an old friend of my parents and grandparents) our plans for the weekend. PIL turned up a couple of times. We found out six months later how close they were to the other person - even more recently, I have found out one of MY friends who I thought was just really friendly knew about the whole situation from PIL. I went back through my FB inbox recently and had forgotten about a whole heap of PMs she sent me asking for more details of each of my kids' births (we never told PIL about anymore pregnancies/babies). That explained a lot ... I have had trust issues with people because of the things my PIL do and they way they get to us. I feel paranoid. I am at the point now where I have decided I don't care. If they find out about us, I just don't care. I am sick of hiding all the time. If they see photos of my kids, if they have details of my life, screw it. I don't want to live like this ... anyway.
So in December 2009, PIL turned up at something we had planned to attend and stood and waited for us. We saw them and walked in the other direction. They saw us and five minutes later we saw them crying quite hysterically to a group of other people. We left.
We also started getting emails from them saying FIL had retired and they were moving. We were getting last chance emails in the count down to them going - 'five days until we leave, please contact us' sort of thing. We ignored it. We got lots of emails over the two years - inviting us to parties and Christmas all of them seemed to have the expectation that we would attend.
Once they left, they sent us another email to say they had moved. We decided to respond. We wrote and said we might be interested in having a relationship with them via email but nothing more at this point. They immediately asked for photos of our children and information. We emailed them a few photos. They emailed back to say they hadn't left yet, they were just away for a couple of weeks house hunting but would be back for a few weeks to settle things here and wanted to meet with us. Narcissists don't waste anytime in demanding things - a foot in the door is permission to take whatever they like.
We ignored requests for things that we didn't want to give them. We lay low while they were back here and once they had moved properly, we continued to email. Around this time we found out about narcissism. I think we kind of lost all hope that we would work things out with them at this point which was disappointing in some ways but a huge relief in others. We had spend years questioning what was wrong with us and blaming ourselves for not being able to make this relationship work.
We decided to continue emailing but they were putting more and more pressure on us to have more. It started with comments from them about not being able to communicate properly via email and moved into demands for things. We continued to ignore their comments (they weren't really requests - they never asked a question, just made statements/demands).
Around October 2010, we got an email telling DH that FIL was in town and wanted to meet with him and also asking if they were allowed to send our kids a Christmas present. We ignored the comment about FIL but responded to MIL to say that we think a card would be sufficient if she wanted to send our kids something for Christmas. She wrote back:
It seems innocent, but there is so much going on in these sentences that it just all felt so overwhelming again. I think if you have a parent with NPD, you can probably see it but to a person with a reasonable parent, this probably looks okay.:
We would have really like to send our grandchildren M, J and X a little Christmas gift.
If you have decided that that would not be a good idea we will go along with your wishes.
We would have loved to send you all a little Christmas gift each for isn't that what we do at Christmas.
At the same time, FIL turned up at our church on Sunday morning and waited out the front for us. You can read about that here: https://www.bellybelly.com.au/forums...me-fil-147387/
From this, we sent them a letter to inform them that their behaviour for the last few years was considered unlawful stalking. We had been in contact with the police who agreed that FIL's behaviour was concerning and told us that we probably had enough for a DVO. We informed them that if they continued to contact us, we would be seeking a DVO. Seemed to fix it because we have not heard anything from them since that email. So we are now in full no contact and it is a permanant thing. It is bliss!
I will probably leave this up here for a couple of days and take it down because there are a lot of details here I don't want popping up on a google search, but I wanted to share :)
I think a PSG sounds like a good idea too - I had no idea there would be so many of us when I started this thread! Maybe one of the mods could put up a sticky thread with information and links so that people can become aware if they have a parent with NPD, and then if they feel they do or they need to they can request to join the PSG? I would just hate to think new people to come would miss out on the support if it was solely in a PSG.
I'll see if I can put in a request or something for us :)
TFB - We move on the Wednesday, so I'm hoping to have pretty much everything unpacked and where we want it by then anyway, but I'm just letting her THINK she can help - we might get her to help clean the yard at the house we're moving out of, give her roundup duty or something - something crappy that nobody else wants to do but she will do because it will make us 'need her'
ETA - I put up a request in the Suggestions and Requests forum, so we will see how it goes from there.
Us. No contact now for almost 5 years.:
I'm another reading, and being present.
Thanks, strawbs!
Ah, minnie - she doesn't see it because of that old chestnut "can't treat family and friends"...somehow it's been extrapolated to mean that she's either unable or not allowed to use her skills to improve relations in her own family!
I definitly think I fit in here but I am very careful what I say in the 'public' area.
Reading this has given me much better insight into my mother. Thankyou all so much for sharing.
I had no contact with my mother for over 4 years. She was told where to go by DH in the lead up to our wedding. We only got back in contact again due to the death of my sister (apparently I was not allowed to mourn her, I had to have a relationship with our mother, thanks interfering enablers - you suck!). We had on and off contact since that point. Once she went to a nursing home for her dementia I found it better to not talk to her. Family contacting her would get her out of sorts for days, so it was deemed better by the staff that we don't call her directly, but to talk to staff to see how she was.
Due to my mother's death I don't have an issue talking about her, but certainly understand why others need it to be private.
This is why I'm not on a parenting website in my own country: I don't want my mother finding out anything about me. Even googling my username here doesn't come up with BB in the first few pages. Even so, I'd feel more secure in a closed area.
Can I join if my relative is my sister, not one of my parents? I've been reading all of your experiences, and have had such 'lightbulb' moments - it explains a LOT.
Maybe it can be children of narcissists and affected family? The name of the forum would need to immediately reach out to the children first, because of the power dynamic of the parent/child relationship that really skews how your life turns out. Not saying that siblings aren't affected in important ways, just saying that the effect of having a NM permeates just about every aspect of life, especially when those children have their own families and either accept what their NM mothers have to say about them (and how powerful that opinion can be, whether it is believed or rejected!) or struggle to reconcile their revolt against all that they have experienced of being mothered versus what they know the mothering experience can be (tv, friends, other extended family).
I would say there is definitely a place for siblings - especially if you're concerned for her kids and need strategies to save the sanity of those kids!
I had joined another PSG initially for this problem with my mum, but it doesnt' really fit in neatly there, because it's an ongoing 'crisis' that doesn't really have a resolution, because I'll always have her as my mother, even if I decided on No Contact. And I'd eventually like to pull out of that PSG when other things improve. I just would like that private kind of space to nut it out.
Thankfully she doesn't have kids. I've driven myself insane for years, being the eldest and thinking I need to fix everything and make everyone happy. But no matter how I tried to help her, it was never enough. And then other people would tell me things that she had said, horrible, nasty things. I never believed them until recently, Mum got her a job where she worked, and she started lying to the boss, trying to get Mum fired! :o
It makes me question the things she's told me, and the things I've done to try and help her with these situations when they may not have even existed....she's brilliant at pointing the finger everywhere but herself, and never EVER sees her responsibility in anything. Professor and I have recently gone no contact with her, which is a shame, I don't think her husband understands our position. I don't actually think he realises what she does, the horrible, spiteful emails she's been sending to our parents, the phone calls. She invited us to her anniversary lunch in a few weeks - I don't know what to do. I know other family are going, and if none of her immediate family are there, they'll ask questions and make it a religious thing. Not to mention, it'll be held against us for millenia to come. But if we go, we'll probably be the only ones....plus it means I hafta nod and smile when she says these lies.
Is there actually any treatment, a medication or something?
would love if its made private.
(one of 2 reasons why i havent posted much, seccond being my own hang up of feeling over-dramatic!)