Do you find this insulting?

[Lenny]

All very well said Mel. Of course.

And JB - from now on can you get it out of your head that;
a) fertility issues are age related
b) adoption is easy - or easier than IVF
c) that fertility issues are related to health issues that can be fixed by healthy living
d) that you have any idea of what you would do if you couldn't conceive - you can, therefore you will never know what you would do in that situation, and can't possible say that it's not something you would do.

[~Raven~]

Mel and to all of you going through IVF!

I have had a hard time trying to think of the right words to say in regards to this topic.
I don't think it's right that a couple that are able to conceive without assistance should be allowed access to IVF services. Personally I'm not insulted but I do feel for those who cannot achieve or sustain a PG without help.

I also agree wholeheartedly with Marydean when she says

but I am concerned about the apportioning of medical resources to those who are in greatest need.

The thought of someone who needs IVF being bumped or having their waiting times increased by someone who wants to use it for social or convenience reasons saddens me immensely.

[Caramello]

So far I have stayed out of this discussion because I was not really sure of my opinion on the original question.

However, Jellybean, your statement:

we would undergo extensive mutual detoxing and Naturopathic pre-conceptual care, and if after that we could still not fall pregnant naturally, we would be turning to adoption before IVF.

has left me absolutely breathless with its insensitivity and naivity.

How I would dearly love to have the option a) to make the choice to have a child with my husband's genes and/or b) to adopt a child with my husband.

Please tell me how detoxing and natropathic care would have made my husband produce sperm? Believe me, we had one natropath guarantee just that - we gave her 6 months, and she could not do as she had promised. This was when we were clutching at straws for anything to work.

I could never see myself being one of those people who are willing to sell their cars, houses, and their sanity in order to conceive a child through IVF,

Please tell me how a man finding out he can never be a father biologically, and his wife, can hold on to all aspects of their sanity? Needless to say, when you are told that you will NEVER be able to produce a child biologically it does things to your mental health - we were lucky to survive the bouts of anxiety and depression and come out the other side with a marriage and the intention to have a child.

And of course, because of these diagnoses, we will never be able to adopt.

So we are putting all our time, money and energy into having a child via IVF.

And my answer to the original question - no I am not insulted, just amazed that people would put themselves through the pain and heartache that we have, in order to have twins.

[Devon]

Top post Gargy.

I hope my post didn't annoy you, I did wonder if my going on about biological children would be offensive to people involved in donor processes. If it was insensitive, I apologise.

I have wondered what I would do if either DH or I couldn't have a biological child, and I do know that it's something I can't possibly decide on because it hasn't happend to me. To be honest, I feel that even if I couldn't be the biological mother, I would use donor eggs with my husband's sperm or vice versa because a huge part of it for me is to carry the baby in my body to to give birth, I feel like that would be integral to *me* feeling like a mother. Not that I'm saying people who haven't done that aren't real mothers - of course they are, just talking about my feelings.

So anyway, I really hope that my post didn't hurt your feelings or come across as insensitive.

xxxx

[dusty]

Ahhh JB to be so sure of how you think you would behave or choose to behave if you were in a position that you had to. Interesting perspective after you have already had two children of your own. If you do choose to go down the adoption path, I wish you all the best as it is probably harder than IVF in some ways. As the other ladies have so well outlined adoption is near impossible and getting harder to access all the time.

I actually shared some of your perspective when I was in my 20s. I felt it was a worthy decision to choose to have a child through adoption (when I hadn't even contemplated I may have difficulty conceiving my own child)because of many ideological issues I felt strongly about at the time...that was until I turned 31 and had the most amazing and overwhelming physical and mental urge for me to procreate. I never expected it to happen (hadn't thought about it much) and then one day BOOM! As an subfertile woman I sometimes wish it had never ever been switched on.

In my experience adoption is a long and arduous process and I really admire anyone that commits to going through it these days. As Mel said it takes years (ACT is now looking at 6+ years), you are at the beck and call of the adoption authorities, you can not undergo any Assisted Conception while going through it and must wait at least 6 months after finishing AC to be able to even submit an expression of interest to start the application process, or risk having to start the process all over again. You need to remain in the same state (you can't move away, take a job interstate etc) while your file is overseas (for an unknown period of time), having every aspect of your life looked over and judged etc. Adoption in Australia is increasingly difficult to access and success is not guaranteed.

Infertility can take a lot of time to diagnose, and then surgery or IVF seems the magic cure all, but not always. By the time adoption becomes more of an option in your mind years can have passed with the prospect of staring down at least 6 more years of the same old waiting. For me that would take me out to 10 years since starting TTC and I would be 45 by the time the child (if I were still eligible) would arrive. So no I don't agree with your PS that Adoption is an option if it gets too tough, and it misses the point that many things about infertility are tough, adoption is just as tough if not tougher than the rest of them.

[Caramello]

Devon,

Your post was not insensitive - actually it would probably be how I would feel, if I had the choice.

Thanks for your understanding.

Also thanks for your comment about my post - I'm feeling a little raw which is why I've stayed away from here for so long.

[suse]

Had to share the love Dusty -

[maz]

The silliest thing I find about this thread...the way people dont realise how insensitive they are when they say im not being insensitive! Who are they kidding?? themselves???

[briggsy's girl]

PPS- Adoption IS an option if it gets too tough!! he he....

i'm really hoping by the outpouring in this thread since this post that even ONE person learns that comments like this are amongst the most insensitive an infertile person can hear. it's almost as bad as "just relax" or "go on holiday, stop thinking about it" - they are comments that cut to the core, and do nothing but show that there are far too many people that think this journey is easy.

FWIW, i'm pretty sure it's clear now how much adoption ISN'T an option if it "gets too tough". it's a case of one or the other, and they're both equally emotionally trying for those going through the process. if you really think ivf or adoption are easy, go and do some reading about what an ivf cycle entails, or find your local states adoption application process. look at the times, the expense, and the wishy washy maybe outcomes - and then tell me that either is the easy way out.

i'm sure there is not a single person who's posted here of their IVF journey that would CHOOSE to go through it over natural conception. hell, even those in same sex couples or single women take the lesser option (IUI) with minimal invasive procedures. it's devastating in the first place telling you that you have minimal to no chance of natural conception, and every step of the way feeling like you're fighting a losing battle.

i would love to be one of those individuals that doesn't understand IVF - on this one ignorance truly would be bliss. for those of you for whom this is the case - think a bit before you post. we are REAL people, with REAL feelings, laying our hearts on the line to try to help you understand - don't kick us while we're down

[AnyDream]

The silliest thing I find about this thread...the way people dont realise how insensitive they are when they say im not being insensitive! Who are they kidding?? themselves???

I agree, it's a bit like saying, I'm not racist but... (!) This isn't a comment about any specific posts in this thread, but rather a general comment about how you can never really understand the heartache unless you have walked that path yourself. I imagine this is especially true for couples who are going down the AC path, as the desire for a baby is so meshed with our deepest yearnings, and it's such a personal and deeply private journey. So people who have not experienced it are often largely ignorant of the enormous physical and emotional trials of that path. Hence the unwitting insensitivity.

[sushee]

I think if, after all that, ANYONE is under any illusion that adoption is somehow an 'easy' solution to infertility, and even a solution to the very real, very complex issues associated with infertility, you truly need to educate yourself on the facts before contributing further to this thread.

Yet again this has become an attack on why someone would choose to do IVF, which is NOT what the topic is about. Make no mistake that we will not tolerate further derogatory comments about why anyone would do IVF or allusions to the state of mind of those who do IVF. If you really feel like an intellectual discussion about why someone with infertility would chose to do IVF, please feel free to email me. I have lots to say on the subject.

So now that we have made our points clear on that particular subject, can we please get back on topic.

[Willow]

Had second thoughts about posting

[Nixon]

PS- In regards to my post above, I don't mean to offend any IVF couples out there! I'm not saying IVF is wrong or bad or anything like that. Personally its just not a decision I would make. My heart does go out to anyone who is struggling to conceive naturally, via IVF or otherwise.

PPS- Adoption IS an option if it gets too tough!! he he....

Are you kidding? I seriously read this and the previous post about 10 times to try and even comprehend why someone would post something like this. Sorry - I'm sure I'm going to get a smack on the hand for posting this or even get kicked off but I am gob-smacked.

Jellybean - go and get an education. Read a few stories on BB in the long term TTC or google IVF and get a clue.

Sorry - again - I'm stunned.

[butterfly_warrior]

I'm still absolutely dumbfounded at how someone can so calmly state so precisely what they would do when faced with infertility. Fact is, it's a bit like quantum physics... Which may sound a bit odd, but we're talking about being able to observe a particle, but the act of observing influences the particle and therefore changes what's happening.

What I mean is that you can calmly and precisely state that this is what you would do when faced with infertility, but you can never really know until you are actually in that situation. The reality of infertility changes everything you have ever felt about having children and what you would do.

For example... my husband, absolutely adamant that we would never do IVF. Even when faced with our initial diagnoses of fertility problems, he was all for taking the low-intervention approach to conception. Sure, it was going to take some help, but IVF was still completely off the table. Then the true extent of our combined fertility problems came out when we saw the fertility specialist for the second time... the low-intervention approach MAY have worked if it was just my side of the problem we were dealing with, but DH's sperm were so bad that IVF with ICSI was our ONLY hope of ever conceiving. No IVF, no ICSI, no baby. I was always willing to do whatever it would take, but when DH was confronted with the reality of the situation, he was quite happy to go through the IVF process. Just one cycle of egg collection, whatever frozen embryos we get, and that would be it. Lets just say that three egg collections, three miscarriages, seeing me become incredibly sick twice, five embryo transfers later... we finally have success.

You can form whatever ideas about what you would do when in this situation, but the reality of actually BEING in the situation will change all your ideas, plans and preconceived notions about IVF and what you would and would not do.

To use an analogy some may find easier to relate to: It's easy to say you would never steal bread to feed your starving child... but what happens when you are faced with said starving child? When it's steal bread or starve to death? You can't say for sure what you would do, because as soon as you are in that situation your reality changes, your frame of reference changes. Would you really allow your child to starve to death because of a decision made in happier times that you would never steal bread?

On another note... if my sanity were all it cost me to conceive the child I am now pregnant with - it was damned well spent! I think that being forever childless would have done far greater damage to my sanity, despite all that the IVF journey threw at me.

I don't think there are enough rep points to give to those beautiful empathic people who have never been faced with fertility problems yet are so incredibly supportive of those in the midst of it. I won't say understanding, because if one thing is (hopefully) becoming more and more obvious in this thread - it's simply not something you can understand unless you live it. Thank you to those who just listen and offer shoulders to cry on when needed. I don't think I have the words to adequately express how much I appreciate your words and support both in this thread and in the rest of life.

BW

[dianeandross]

Why do people post with their opinions when they have NFI about IVF or Adoption?
How could you possibly know what you would or wouldn't do unless you were in the situation, unable to conceive children naturally?

Great posts Melbel & Lenny

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

JB, it's great you would consider adoption. DH and 'I talked about this pre-TTC: he would rather do IVF than adopt because of biology (although was happy to remain childless, but knew that it wasn't an option for me). Thankfully we didn't need either, but the point is that even in the cold, people make different decisions. We may have changed our minds should we not have DS, but who knows? Thankfully, not us.

That doesn't make me a better or worse person than you. Just that our decisions would have been different. Adoption has different requirements to IVF and different perspectives from prospective parents. It has different needs legally and financially. They aren't really comparable TBH because the processes are SO different and require different parts of yourself to be exposed and laid bare at different times and in different orders.

I just want to give huge hugs to the other women who have gone through this decision which I know we would ALL rather have remained hypothetical. You're all heroes and thank you all for sharing your journies with us.

[Steph]

Since my original post, I have become more educated about IVF - I was fortunate to conceive naturally, but did have 4 miscarriages and took years to have the children I have, so I do just want to say that everything is relative - someone who has never had a miscarriage can't understand what it is truly like, someone who has children of both genders will never truly understand my longing for a girl, someone who has never gone thru IVF (like me) will never understand the obvious complexities and heartaches, but I do want to say - there are probably alot of us dealing with different types of heartaches in our journeys to have children, do we really have the right to judge anyone's feelings? I know since this topic, I am far more understanding of others pain, it doesn't however diminsh my own personal struggles - just gives me more empathy. I used to cringe when someone would tell me "it was an accident or it wasn't planned", but long ago I realised how can they possibly understand what I went through to have my 3 beautiful angel boys... I pray success for everyone in their stuggles to have a child - what ever option they have to endure or are fortunate enough to be blessed with and am thankful for all the wonderful people in here who have helped open my eyes. I still do not feel insulted, as simply, I do not know what others struggle with, I only know my own...

[sushee]

Okay now I really am feeling like I'm being ignored. I understand the high emotions involved but if everyone does not get back on topic NOW, I will lock this thread. Final warning.