Miscarriage/Loss General Discussion #1

Hi.
*Bree-Ana* here..
Ok, i'm 16..
But i recently lost my baby girl Elena..
I have no one to talk to that understands me. Not even my own mother.
I have people around me getting pregnant and it really hurts cause some are friends and are constantly asking what to do..
I only got up to 12 weeks (barely) and they ask me something and i just freeze up.
They all know i just lost my baby girl. Although its now been 2 months since i lost her.
It still hurts like i only found out an hour ago..
It like the memory of that ultra-sound won't leave my mind. And when it's popped into my head its like i can hear a heartbeat in the background..

How do i make it go away?
Its just making my heart brake a little more each time.

*Bree-Ana*

Big big :hug: to you, I'm so very sorry for the loss of your precious angel. This is a really difficult time for you right now, just take day by day, it does get a little easier with time. Although the pain never leaves us we somehow learn to deal with our grief. I hope you have lots of family and friends for support, you need that right now. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Regards,
Dianne

Emmanuel born sleeping 24wks
Trisomy 13

Yes thank you Dianne.
I sometimes have days where i just wanna stay in bed all day but unfortnately i can't cause i have to keep on with my life.. So says my boyfriend.
At the moment its hard just going day by day when i know that as i progress onwards that my darling Elena will never have that luxory.

Uhm not so family and not many friends are being all that supportive.
Probably cause no one really approved of it.

Is it so wrong that i still am keen to have a baby at such young of an age??
Its hard to believe it was only 2 months and 2 days ago i had a baby and now i dont.
Its heart braking.

*Bree-Ana*

Bree-Ana
regardless of age or how far along you were it hurts.
I know what you mean i miss my baby more and more each day and its hard to believe that almost a month ago my baby was ripped from me but all i can say is already it has taught me alot, i got my priorities in order.
Yes you are very young and i would suggest careful consideration but hey its your life and no one elses.
I really hope your ok.
Lauren

Thank you.
Most people just consider my age and say i dont know what i'm talking about but in actual fact i very much know what i'm talking about.

With everyday passing and missing her even more it hurts..
Sometimes i just want it all to end but deep down inside i know it will never happen.
With loosing Elena it gave me a reality check on my career pathway and i now know what i'm going to do with my life. Which is a bit of a relief.

I dont plan on having a baby anytime soon now.
I was just wondering if its normal to really want a baby at this age.
I mean i was rather over the moon when i found out i was pregnant and i really do miss being pregnant.

*Bree-Ana*

Hi everyone,

Im new to this web site, but as im sure you all can imagine..when you are disparate you go looking everywhere for answers.

I have lost a total of 15 pregnancies, the last one as recent as yesterday. As much as I am grieving I just want some answers. So if anyone can help...I thank you now.

I have had every test under the sun done, to be told there is nothing wrong with me...I beg to differ, there must be something wrong explain 15 losses???, Is there something Im missing??

I have been seen in the public system where my GP made a referral for me, however maybe if I went private my outcome would be different??, can anyone recommend a specialist on the Central Coast NSW?.

I realize that I may be grabbing at straws, I jsut want some answers.

Thank you all..x

Hello everybody,

new here, i suffered a pre-term labour and miscarriage at 17 weeks after my appendix burst. While recovering well physically, the emotions do take some time to even out.. and i just wanted to add my thoughts on grieving.

I think the difference b/w men and women here is that while men enjoy the here and now of being pregnant, (Yes, my wife's pregnant with our second, yes it's great) as women we project a future that is hard to grieve for - because it's in our head. After 12 weeks, or even earlier, you've already thought about the planned birth date - what that means in terms of existing family members - for example the age difference between mine would have been 2yrs and 4 months; how old she would have been when my son went to kindy (8mths), school (2 years 8mths) what we would have looked like going on holiday (exhausted)

So while i am still coming to terms with the fact that I'm no longer pregnant - I had begun to feel her moving, I find it harder to process the images and thoughts of what is no longer going to happen.... November due date, this Christmas with a new baby...

Hi all, I've been on bb since october last year and have finally gotten up the guts to come on here - about a month ago I also got up the guts to list my angels in my sig.

I've lost 4 precious angels before 8 weeks, the first ended in a termination after it was found to be borderline ectopic and had serious abnormalities that would not allow it to survive. I had no support back then, being only 17. My doctor told me it my fault for being so young, that because of my age my baby had problems and hadn't implanted in the right place (which is stupid, anyone who has done VCE Units 1-4 in Biology would know that that isn't true) and that I wouldn't be a good mother because of it.
The second died after a car accident (I lost it 5 days later) and the other two had no explanation but could have been chemical pregnancies...

The last one was over 2 years ago now, and I have a healthy ds who will be 1 on the 23rd, which just goes to show that there is hope for those who have had mc's. DS is the light of my life, and brings me so much joy that I often forget my angels anniveraries, and when I do remember them I feel guilty that they aren't here, playing with their little brother.

With the first angel, my boyfriend at the time had been urging me to terminate even before we had the first scan and found out what was wrong. I still get angry at how happy he was after the d&c when he knew that he wasn't going to have to have all the responsibility of being a father. I still have no closure, even after helping others for years. I should be a counselor, I've helped that many people, all because I've been through the same thing.

I guess I've been holding it all in for so long now that I need someone to talk to about it. I give out advice to everyone on how to live/deal/manage with it, but never seek advice or support for myself when I'm having a hard time. I guess I've been channeling it all into helping others instead of helping myself. I'd love to have someone to talk to, both here on bb andvia txt when I need to, especially now that I'm ttc again.

Oops posted my story here without realizing the thread had been dead so long... Might find somewhere else to post it...

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Oops posted my story here without realizing the thread had been dead so long... Might find somewhere else to post it...

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I was hoping it would be a little more active also... I really want, no need advice... I am not sure if I am losing my baby, I am just over 7weeks, another week and I was announcing it in RL.

Hi Damprye, I posted a bit before Lozzy_mac, and forgot about the thread.
If you'd like, we can talk a bit.
I hope your little one stays sticky darl, I'll be praying for you both!

Is this the current thread for support of a current m/c?

This is the current one, just seems like a rarrity that anyone posts sadly enough. I found posting my own thread to be better as I got responses that way. I felt so alone duriing that loss

:( So glad everything is working out for you this time Dampyre

I'm just so sad. Could really go a hug :( Anyone?

:hug: Tellytubby :( If you want to talk, feel free to pm me.

Thank you so, so much Freya.
I really just needed to know someone out there was with me... thank you.
I'm feeling so alone. I cant stop crying.
I had a d&c on wednesday. Just think its finally hitting me.

I'm so sorry tellytubby :hug: Wish I could turn it all around for you hun. Many hugs coming your way :hug::hug::hug:

Hey all

I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to post, I just don't feel like I fit anywhere at the moment. I'm NOT pregnant, let me just get that out there first! History is m/c in 08, DD in 09, m/c three months ago. DD's pregnancy started out the same way as the two m/c with spotting, but she held on. I had spotting on occasion throughout. We decided in Jan this year that we did want another baby, but are yet to succeed. I don't feel like I belong in the TTC groups, firstly I don't chart, or take my temp or anything (and half the time I have no idea what all the abbreviations mean :lol:) and I am a little private about stuff like that too. But I guess I just need to feel brave. That there are other people who have that fear of it all going wrong, that paranoia that sends you to the loo every five and a half seconds to check that everything is okay. And that is has gone right. I know I have living proof in DD that it can go right, but right now I have so much doubt that she was a fluke somehow. Plus the addition of everyone around me going through their own private battles with TTC, I just don't want to talk about it - it doesn't feel right.

So I guess what I'm asking is am I in the right place? I need inspirational stories I guess to get me through. You know, when I had my first m/c, everyone told me that it was common with the first, so many women go through it. But now I've had two, well I feel like it's a different ball game again. I hope this makes sense. I'm just writing what I'm thinking and that's all a bit jumbled. Thanks for reading.

Hey mate, I know what you mean. When you have one, it doesn't feel as bad I guess, you're positive you will have a healthy pregnancy to follow. But after the second, you really do begin to question your body's ability. Everything us up in the air, and you're almost unsure if you even want to try again. I'm in the same place right now. So unsure if I should even try, as I'm not sure I could emotionally go through another miscarriage?
I have no idea what people talk about with all the abbreviations and technical talk too, so don't feel like you're the only one. So really don't think the ttc threads are for me.
With my ds, I had alot if bleeding... I mean alot. Seemed to be pretty constant until the 15 week mark, my dd I also had a small bleed, but that was a once off. So bleeding really doesn't mean the end. It really is a whole new level of paranoia once you've had a mc hey? You feel like you live on the toilet, live in fear.

At the moment I'm looking at it like a pattern. Healthy baby (dd), miscarriage at 9 weeks, healthy baby, miscarriage at 8.5 weeks, so next time I try, I must be having another healthy baby.. Right?
Maybe you could look at it the same.. Miscarriage, healthy baby, miscarriage, .... Healthy baby ;)

It will happen Hun, unfortunately we may experience sadness again, and I hate that. But I really want this... I really want the privilege, the honor, of raising a third child. So am going to take the risk. It has only been 3 weeks since my d&c, so I am going to wait until af, then get serious with ttc. (get serious means nookie every other day, as I have no idea on the technicals!). I would happily be your ttc buddy in this thread :)

:hug: sucks hey? But I can't wait to read your BA next year :D xo

:hug: Big ones for both of you.

tellytubby :hug: I hate it. I keep telling myself that pregnancy is supposed to be special, but all I could do was worry, and that made me worry for being worried! LOL. We hired a doppler for DD's pregnancy and it really helped saved my sanity each time I started spotting. There was one day it happened at work and I called DH - he left work and went home to pick up the doppler and brought it to me. I lay in the backseat of the car just to make sure everything was still okay. It was horrible. You've echoed many of my feelings and thoughts and I'm so sorry you're feeling it too. Nobody in my family has been through this and it meant that after the first m/c, nobody really knew how to act around me which drove me bananas. So this time around we didn't really say anything straight away, but that doesn't feel fair either. Vicious circle.

I guess I fell into this false sense of security that it wouldn't happen again. I did have one baby. DH is being really supportive because I keep blaming myself. He says that it could be him that's causing it, but I doubt that because I have spotting throughout. I have fibroids too, so I know that they could be causing the spotting. I know the facts, but I just want it all to go away so I can enjoy what will be our last pregnancy. We're both living in a land of limbo, waiting to fall pg, waiting to move house, waiting for our plans to happen. Right now, we're both just going through the motions (with a few highlights here and there!), just waiting for something to happen. Gah!

AF is here atm and it's a "normal" one at last. I m/c naturally in April and didn't expect things to take so long to get back to normal. First m/c was a d&c and I felt on top of things a lot faster then. Good luck with your TTC, hun.

Thanks for the hugs, Audax. :hug:

Pac - I totally understand where you are coming from. I think the whole uncertainty of TTC after miscarriage really takes it out of you. My journey went from not being able to conceive, to conceiving the miscarrying, to conceiving then miscarrying twin A but going on to have a healthy baby. Then conceiving easily but miscarrying again, then clomid for another healthy baby. Then SURPRISE, a healthy baby from not even trying. Then two miscarriages. So Ive kind of gone down then up then down again. I keep reminding myself Ive achieved 3 healthy babies before, I can do it again but I have to wonder whats different in the last 12-18mths from before? If anything things are better physically, mentally and lifestyle wise. I gave my body a rest after having 3 kids so close together, Im trying to eat healthy and lose weight............................yet nothing.

We're 4 months off TTC. Dh is overseas atm so December is our start month. Im already noticing issues with my cycle (like spotting mid cycle and really bad cramping right throughout). I said if it became a stressful journey to get pregnant I wouldnt do it and I can just see Im going to have to head off to a fert specialist and find out what the heck is going on before we even start trying. Im betting theyll probably suggest clomid again as I think its a progesterone issue, then on top of that having to do the clexane injections for the whole pregnancy - Im already tired just thinking about it.

Tellytubby, I think of you often, I hope your doing ok considering :hug:

Freya - that's full on.:hug: It's the whole unknown there, I guess. The knowledge that you can have a healthy pregnancy and baby - if it can be done, then why do you have to go through all the other stuff! It's not fair. I get jealous when I hear about people who flourish when pregnant, who just go with it. I hope I can be that person, but I doubt it. I have my fingers crossed that when your DH comes home, everything clicks into place for you.

I'm healthy, bit heavier than I'd like to be, but I think I'm in an okayish range. I don't drink coffee, rarely drink alcohol, am not on any medications. Never have been. Biggest vice is I don't eat enough fruit. But I feel like for some reason my body isn't equipped properly to just hang on and do what it's supposed to do for nine months.

Just one more baby....one more.

Freya - wow... yes I agree with Pac, full on :( I hope your body sorts itself out, and when your husband returns from overseas a beautiful, easy, sticky, surprise awaits you. Ahh that would be just heavenly, woudln't it? ;) That is so sweet, for you to say that you think of me often. I feel like such a neglectful BB member. I've never actively looked in this section of the forum until recently, all of you beautiful women in here who have been doing it so hard, and I haven't cared to even look :( Yet when I needed you all the most, there you were, supporting me then, and still now. :grouphug: I'm so sorry for my absense, I really do support all of you and hope nothing but the best for you all. Freya, strange question, but were you once known by a different username? I'm just trying to piece my thinking together, Anne??? Excuse me if i''m mistaken x

Pak, my god I hate it to. I have so many friends who announce their pregnancy to the world within ours of a BFP. I just wish I could be so carefree. Its just not fair. And they cruise through their pregnancies, not a stress, not a worry - just a beautiful journey, as it should be. From the very first moment we see a gorgeous second line, we do nothing but stress. And you know what?? I can only imagine how bad that is for our growing human :( But Pak, please, please do not blame yourself. There is nothing you could have done to prevent it. As much as I hate hearing this myself, it really was just meant to be. Keep your chin up high, you are an amazing woman, you will have another, healthy, beautiful baby, okay? We may even be bellybuddies together ;) :hug:

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Nobody in my family has been through this and it meant that after the first m/c, nobody really knew how to act around me which drove me bananas. So this time around we didn't really say anything straight away, but that doesn't feel fair either. Vicious circle.

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I know that feeling so well. I remember when my nephew was handed over to me, there were these glances everywhere, like people were worried they'd break me. (mind you nobody thought to not have his 1st birthday party on my EDD :rolleyes: ) I feel like nobody, especially in DHs family, understands just how precious this makes our little girl. They call us overprotective. I call them *********s.

As much as it feels like they're not, the odds are actually on your side for every pregnancy. Most pregnancies survive and are OK. I had to tell myself this a thousand times every hour when pregnant with DD, because when you've been on the bad side of the odds, it's so hard to believe that you'll be on the other side.

And it sucks, but I fully expect to have another m/c. That's a crappy place to be, but at the same time I just think I'm being realistic.

Great memory Telly! I was formerly known as A N N A T. But had to do a quick costume change when some family members overstepped boundaries!

Heh, family havent been all that great a support with my miscarriages. The opposite infact but I wont go on about it because I bet all our stories are similar. Not even Dh was really supportive until the last two I had. I think it hit him then, looking at our boys, about what exactly it is we lost, even if it was in those early stages of pregnancy. He's worried now, about what another miscarriage would do to me. Cant say I blame him, I worry about it too. Worry that Im going to push the envelope to far.

That said, for myself, the whole journey led to something beautiful in the form of some amazing lifelong friendships with some beautiful women I met on here way back in the early days of the Parenting after Miscarriage and Loss thread. I think they've been the saving grace, always one step behind me ready to catch me while I fall apart and then put me back together. A small consolation but something that keeps me going, knowing theyll be holding my hand the entire way through the pregnancy and birth.

Tellytubby - *hugs* it's been a while since I posted in here, to be honest I had forgotten about it :(

PacRakMG - *hugs* to you to hun, the whole TTC journey after m/c sucks, I was lucky in my group as a lot of us had had losses before and understood what it was like, most of them have gone on to have bubs now or are pregnant, so it can all work out right.

Freya - I hope you get that super sticky BFP really quickly when hubby gets back from overseas *hugs* to you as well xx

Audax - sending you *hugs* too x

afm - thought I'd better update my history...
Jan '05 - d&c due to borderline ectopic and abnormalities not compatible with life; Jan '06, m/c; Jul '06, m/c; Aug '07, m/c; Dec '08, DS; Jan '10, m/c; Mar '10, m/c; Mar '11, DD, Jun '11, m/c.

7 losses and 2 rainbow babies... I feel so lucky to have my 2 kids, especially DD as we thought we would lose her a few times with several bleeds early in the pregnancy and pre-term contractions at 21wks.

Not much happening with me though, hubby doesn't want any more kids, I do... He wants to get a vasectomy but I don't want him to, and I'm trying to convince him that we should have 1-2 more babies, but scared of having another m/c at the same time, especially after our surprise pregnancy and early m/c in June.

Hope the rest of you are doing ok today xxx

Tellytubby - Fingers crossed we'll be lucky enough to be bellybuddies together! I wasn't really using BB much when I was pregnant, so I didn't know about the buddies groups, and then when DD was born, she had hip dysplasia and I found it too hard to go into the baby buddies group and see how babies her age were developing when she couldn't. So I sort of missed out on all of that. I joined the baby buddies group after she was brace free and they are a beautiful bunch of people, so I'm looking forward to this time around joining in from the start. I'd love to just tell people that I fell pg after we found out ourselves, but we learned the hard way the first time. Once we told people, and the grapevine took off it was nuts. But when I m/c, the grapevine didn't work and I had people coming up to me a month later, asking me where my belly was. It was so painful for me and embarrassing for them. I sat at my SIL's baby shower (who fell pg before me) and when she was opening her presents, all eyes were on me to see how I was coping. So much pity, it was awful and I swore we wouldn't tell anyone again until we were at 12 weeks.

Audax - I remember my ob talking about the odds and I know they're on my side. I know I can be a little overprotective at times, but luckily nobody gives me grief for it. My family saw what I was going through when we lost the first one, even though I acted pretty tough :lol: and then to go through the hip journey as well, yeah, it wasn't easy. My parents were overseas for the first six months of DD's life and when they returned, my stepdad went through this horrible period of guilt because they came home to see this cute chubby baby with locked-in legs and he realised what DH and I had been going through with very little support. So all that overprotectiveness comes from them too :)

Freya - The support I've found on here is incredible. I think once all is well and I do fall pg, that the PAML group is probably the place I need t be. More :hug:

JennaJayen - :hug: Your pg with DD must have been so nervewracking. I hope you can have another baby :hug:

I guess I'm feeling a bit blah about it all at the moment because I'm at the point where we should have shared the news and been enjoying it. We cleaned our our spare room two weekends ago, so it's pretty much empty. All the baby things are in the wardrobe and I know when I do fall pg, at that 12 week mark, everything will be coming out :lol:

I listen to some of your journeys, and I am just gobsmacked at the heartbreak some have been through. Such strong, resilient women in these threads - it really is inspiring :grouphug:

Pak - Yes I was the same with my DD. I wasn't aware of the bellybuddy threads, I'd come on quite often, and would wonder why there wasn't many posts in the 1st tri/2ndtri/3rdtri threads - thought I must have been one of the few pregnant. How wrong I was! Everyone was just chatting in the belly threads thats all! So with my DS I made the effort to join the group, I know exactly what you mean - wow what a lifesaver those friendships have been. I am such introverted person IRL, so the people who I do see, I couldn't really call real friendships. With my first m/c no one knew, so didn't have to worry about "those" looks - however I found that just as hard, I was mourning the loss of a child, and no one even knew. I was so alone, it was ridiculous. Second m/c, a few people knew. I do regret telling a friend from mothers group however. She is pregnant, due 2 days after my angel. Everytime I see her, she tries to bring up conversation on how I am doing and what not. I don't really know how to act, or what to say. I mean... I can't really tell my heart has been ripped out twice now, i don't understand why this happens to me. I'm awkward around her... So I just lie. Tell her how great I am and act happy to see her. Its so gut wrenching trying to pretend like I don't care about my loss :(

I'm so glad to hear you're surrounded by great family, your step dad sounds like a gem. Im at the point where I should be announcing it too. My phone beeped at me today to tell me to go to my NT scan. Ahh that sucked a bit. So have you officially started trying yet?

More :hug: Tellytubby

My cycles have settled down finally so I guess it means we're back on the bandwagon. DH is so keen, he said he wants to finish our family so we can just enjoy. He loves the age DD is at now. The first 12 months were really hard, he felt a bit useless, didn't know what to do, and I wanted him to help so it was a bit of a disaster really. Plus he was working long hours then. I'm hoping it'll be different this time. So it's time to start counting the days on the calender and figure out when our right time is. We seem to conceive okay, it's the follow on that's the challenge.

Have a nice weekend everyone, hope some nice things come your way :hug:

Pac, I just realised your DD and my Ds3 are both March 09 babies :) Arent they just the best ;)

LOL how awesome! See, bet we should have been belly buddies at some stage :)

Pak I hope you don't have to count down the calendar days for too long, before you see that stressful 2nd line. heehee. I know that sounds bad, but you know what I mean :)

I just finished watching rabithole. Has anyone seen it? Wow... So much emotion. I cried almost the entire way. I could feel her grief.
I kept thinking of losing my angels.. I know that is ridiculous comparing the loss of a child to a miscarriage. I am so thankful I have two healthy, gorgeous children sleeping in their beds right now.

To think that accidents like that one do actually happen... A very similar accident happend to my DH's boss. Life sucks sometimes hey.

Hope you guys are taking care of yourselves. xx

Thanks Tellytubby :hug:

Mum told me about rabithole, not one I could watch. I just about bawled in the beginning of Up!!!!

Pak you're not the only one. I also bawled in the beginning of up, so sad!

Just sneaking in to say-

Telly, I remember the day I was sitting at my computer, feeling lost and all alone, and wishing I didn't have to be. That's when I changed my FB status to reflect my sadness over my mc. I remember thinking I didn't care anymore if people felt awkward or uncomfortable.......... I needed to make it known that I had a baby, and he/she mattered. And that's when we reconnected after how many years of non-contact? That's when I realised I wasn't alone, and that we share the same terrible sadness. From that day on, you've been such a special friend to me, I never thought we'd bond so much given the way we bickered in the good old days. I just want you to know that I second everything you're saying here. It's awful to have to hide your grief. It's awful to have to wear the fake happy face so others feel ok around you. If you want to scream it from the rooftops, I'll be right there holding your megaphone for you. You have 4 beautiful babies, some who just sadly couldn't stay here with us. I have everything crossed for your TTC journey. May it be a quick, sticky, healthy happy BFP for you. My heart still hurts for you every day. I want you to know that no matter how alone you might feel, as long as I'm around you never will be. :hug: And if you need someone to yell at, or punch, I'll be on the next flight home!

Hey girls, I thought I should join you here if its ok.

I just read through the last few pages and Im so sorry to hear about the terrible losses you have all endured.

Telly, your second last post really resonated with me. My close friend is due a week before my second angel was due (in Aug) and its been really, really hard seeing her get bigger while I went on to lose again. Its sad but it has affected our friendship a bit because she doesnt want me to feel hurt by seeing her, which is true because it does, but at the same time it would have been nice to have her stay close during this awful time for me.

Ahh forshelby... I know how you feel. That is such a beautiful message, gave me the most wonderful warm fuzzy's. :) I really appreciate your friendship, and am so glad that we have reconnected and share a special connection, even in such horrible circumstances.. :hug: thank you x

Freya, ahh I hate unwanted, snoopy family. I hope you have once again found a safe place in bb. I don't know what I'd do without this community.
Hi diamond how are you going? I've thought about you a bit lately, hoping you're staying strong. I'm so sorry your friendship isn't as it used to be, just as you need a shoulder to cry on too :(. August is so close too .. :hug: so tell me, will you be trying again? I'm sure there will be a sticky babe waiting for you gorgeous, I pray your next pregnancy will be the one x

Pak, hope your planning is going well,and the special days are marked on the calendar ;) remember the pattern. Angel baby, healthy baby, angel baby, HEALTHY baby. :)

Afm, I started painting again. I stopped painting midway through uni. But these past few weeks I've been wanting to express myself through art once again. I did a basic painting the other day as my brushes weren't the best. But have since bought some good ones, so am hoping to get the creative juices flowing this week. I am focusing on the theme "spring". Inspired by the John butler trio song, spring. Ladies, please. If you haven't already please YouTube this song. It is just beautiful. I know you will all love it, google the lyrics too :)

Love to all x

Thanks Tellytubby - I keep telling myself that this one is going to work. Everything is going to be fine. Hope you're finding painting cathartic.

Diamond Girl - I'm sorry for you loss. It's really difficult when you see someone who is at the stage you were supposed to be. I worked at a children's bookstore before DD, and after my first m/c, I went to work three days later. It was horrible. All these beautiful bellies seemed to come into the shop, one after the other. I hope things work out for your friendship :hug: