Conflicting Reasoning of Homebirth and Anti Vaccination

[spenceee]

Some very unfortunate situations shared above - I would have been both terrified and ropeable if this had happened to me and my wife but we were very lucky to be able to birth in a highly regarded private hospital specifically geared for birth. Unfortunately not everyone can afford Private health insurance (I can barely afford it myself). I would however hope that while they do happen that they are not typical of a hospital visit. (in the same regard it could be possible for a HB plan to go out the window if you had a fast labour that went down before the MW could be make it there and/or the pool could be filled etc. I would think that this would be similiarly scary especially if there was a complication but I would expect this to be a very rare occurence)

I think, from what I reading here is that the push to educate about birth and the many options and possible scenarios can be lost on some people. I think it is safe to say that everyone who posted here are a part of the group that did do the research and were educated by the time they gave birth. For me - this thread has re-inforced the need to research and learn about birth and to think about what my defnition of a "good outcome" is.

[spenceee]

Love my man to bits, but men are fixers and just dont do / cope well with the emotionally demanding stuff that can come up in pregnancy.

I think that this has to be a person to person assesment, to generalise that men cant cope emotionally is a bit too broad for me. I was 100% there for my wife throughout the whole thing, I didnt realise how much it took from me to hold her hand and comfort her massage her etc (I used a lot of the stuff that I had read about on HB regarding being a support person here with great effect - I highly reccomend reading up on this even if you plan to do the whole hospital route). Once my son was born and the doctors had told us that he was ok and that my wife was ok too and that everthing was ok my legs kind of went to jelly and I cried (kind of the exact opposite of an adreanlin rush) and had a new resepct for my wife in what she was able to do.

[BellyBelly]

Okay I added *most* but also some pregnancies have more challenges (in different ways) than others. My man freaked out and withdrew a fair bit in the peak of the emotional stuff when I really needed him, I felt even more isolated especially since I had just packed up my whole life and moved to the country to be with him. But a man can never say that he totally understands a woman and what she's going through. Men aren't experienced in pregnancy and/or birth... historically it was a woman's domain. Most women definitely love our partners being there with us, but men aren't equipped to be able to be the sole source of emotional and physical support for a woman. Some pregnancies and births are a breeze, emotionally and or physically, but not all are like that. Birth always works best with one on one, continuous, experienced care. Only an independent midwife (or doula if you get one in combination with medical care) can provide all of those things.

[Maruschke]

Only an independent midwife (or doula if you get one in combination with medical care) can provide all of those things.

Not true, and please don't fall into the trap of saying that the way you received care is the only way to get your needs met. My public hospital middies were fantastic during birth, they blew me away with how supporting and encouraging and nurturing they were. My husband also. I had every single one of my needs met. I'm glad you got your needs met, but birth support is a "horses for courses" type thing, and one model does not fit all.
3+69+

[Little Chicken]

Not true, and please don't fall into the trap of saying that the way you received care is the only way to get your needs met. My public hospital middies were fantastic during birth, they blew me away with how supporting and encouraging and nurturing they were. My husband also. I had every single one of my needs met. I'm glad you got your needs met, but birth support is a "horses for courses" type thing, and one model does not fit all.
3+69+

I will have to agree with this. With my first birth, I had a midwife with me all the time explaining what was happening, keeping me informed. I felt completely 'in the loop' and supported. My second birth was in a different hospital, not one to one care, in fact I was left alone for much of my labour. But I knew they would come if I needed them to, and in fact when I hit transistion really quickly, they were there right away and never left until bub was born. I have no complaints about either birth and felt supported through both.

[grub17]

i think there's a whole other thread here about the role of the male in the pregnancy and birth situation! I know I've seen on other threads about the lady wanting something different to the man and where to go with that!

for me kelly, the statement about not coping well with the emotional stuff in pregnancy is totally not true and a bit sweeping i think. I had a fantastic private hospital birth with DS, barely saw a midwife/doc, and my husband was my rock. he was amazing. Mind you he did read juju's birthskills VERY closely lol. For my second labour at the birth centre, along with the most wonderful midwife, DH was again the main man. I should hire him out as a male doula! he stays so calm and focussed and kept me anchored! only afterwards he told me he finds it very stressful... but didn't know it at the time!!!

anyhoo, i digress.

[Miss.September]

Not true, and please don't fall into the trap of saying that the way you received care is the only way to get your needs met. My public hospital middies were fantastic during birth, they blew me away with how supporting and encouraging and nurturing they were. My husband also. I had every single one of my needs met. I'm glad you got your needs met, but birth support is a "horses for courses" type thing, and one model does not fit all.
3+69+

Totally agree with you Maruschke. The only differing thing between your statement here and mine was I gave birth in a private hospital.

My DH was fantastic - he supported me throughout pregnancy and birth and it was really difficult for him during labour because I don't speak and he had to read me to understand what I needed and wanted. And he got it right every time, without prior discussion. My midwives were the same. I had three all up, two throughout the night who worked together and never left me, and one who took over from the early morning shift. I was also the only person she was looking after, even though the birthing suites were full. Maybe it's because it's a small hospital, mainly for elective surgeries and a big focus on maternity care, but I cannot fault them and the people I know who have birthed there can't fault them either.

[jackrose]

I have been thoroughly enjoying this discussion on the sidelines as I haven't had time to formulate the response I want to, nor have I been able to keep up with the thread and all the points I wanted to address! This point though is the crux for me:

I felt completely 'in the loop' and supported.

Informed, in the loop and supported are part of the key to a successful, positive birth experience. For some people, the best place for them to get this is in a hospital, for others it will be at home.

Spencee, if I may suggest a great resource to find out a little more about home birth, I highly recommend the documentary "The face of Birth".

[spenceee]

it was really difficult for him during labour because I don't speak and he had to read me to understand what I needed and wanted.

My Wife was the same, she had memories of responding to me througout the last 2 hours of her labour but didnt say a word other than humming/moaning throught the big contractions.

[BellyBelly]

The best outcomes at birth do happen with those things:

* Experienced (trained in birth)
* Known to the woman (stranger supporting you less likely to get better outcomes than someone known to you)
* Continuous care (not being left - someone there for you continuously)

All those three things give better results in birth. Your partner can not be all of those things, nor can an obstetrician or hospital midwife... and this is one of the first things my teacher, Rhea, taught me. It is why doulas have such great outcomes at births with their clients (we know the hugely impressive stats like 50% less c/s, less PND, less NICU admissions etc) and why studies have come out showing that doulas get better outcomes than hospital staff or family members - even mum. Its not a flippant comment. I'll post the link to the studies.

Here ya go.

https://www.bellybelly.com.au/forums...ds-164383.html

This would also be true for an independent midwife in a hospital setting or a homebirth - because they work for you not the hospital.

https://www.bellybelly.com.au/pregna...hat-is-a-doula

Studies consistently demonstrate very impressive benefits for the mother, father and baby, including:

50% less caesarean sections
Reduction in the use of forceps by 40%
60% less requests for epidurals
40% reduction in the use of synthetic oxytocin for inductions or augmentations
30% reduction in use of pain medication
25% reduction in labour length
Increased rates of breastfeeding at 6 weeks post-partum (51% vs 29%)
Higher self-esteem (74% vs 59%), less anxiety (28% vs 40%) and less depression (10% vs 23%) at 6 weeks post-partum

These are not misprints! The benefits are significant. Most of the women in the studies were accompanied by male partners, however study results show that women who had the support of a male partner and a doula fared best, for example, the caesarean rate of women supported by both a male partner and a doula was significantly lower (15.4%) than the caesarean rate for women supported only by their partners (24.4%). The studies also clearly show the positive benefits of doula support occur regardless of a woman’s economic status or whether or not they were privately insured. Its simply about having the right support with you at birth.

Are these not better outcomes? Of course you're also guaranteed who you're going to get and their philosophy too. I would rather not roll the dice with something I will remember all my life, and something that may change my body (and baby) and what happened to it, all my life.

[sushee]

I have to admit I had good midwives too, both in public and private hospitals. My first 2 births were public and for the first, the dr came to perform an ARM and came in after the baby was born to stitch me up. For my 2nd, a dr never even came near me until the baby had been delivered. He only came in to check the bleeding to see if it was excessive after the fact (it wasn't). I don't think I missed having a dr there for both deliveries in any case.

For my 3rd birth, I was in a birth centre and the midwife herself almost missed the birth, thinking I had hours to go, checking on other women she thought were going to deliver first lol. Oops!

For the 4th birth, I had a good midwife who stayed with me, but man I wanted to punch her out every single time she would tell me how well I was handling the pain, and was I ready for an epidural now? My ob, despite our good history previously, felt like someone who I had an adversarial relationship with in the delivery room, and while I will not discount the positive part he eventually played in the birth, I also don't feel like he provided the value I had hoped he would.

Oh and also, after the birth, the private hospital maternity ward nurses kept asking me how my ceasarean scar was going, and I had to keep telling them I'd delivered vaginally. I suppose I should have expected this considering that out of the 10 women in my antenatal class, I was the only one planning a vaginal delivery.

I think if not for my husband's concerns though, I would have chosen a birth centre birth again for my 4th. I agreed to have an ob and birth in a private hospital because of his concerns, and as a trade off for refusing to have a planned c/s, but in hindsight, I don't think that being in a private hospital was the best place for me. And he now agrees with me.

[Diamond Girl]

I had 2 private hospital births. My second birth was totally drug free (apart from a few gasps of the gas during transition) and natural (no/minimal interventions). My m/w never left my side and my obs was there when needed. I was asked if I wanted pain relief but was never pressured into it. I said a firm 'No' to an epidural, pethidine, etc and my wishes were respected. It was an amazing birth. I do not regret having my babies in the private hospital, because it looked more like a hotel suite than a hospital anyway and I felt totally comfortable there and relaxed, knowing there was emergency care for me and my baby if needed.

If this option were not available to me and the public hospital was the only alternative, with midwives and Drs Id never met before, not being able to know in advance whether my birth choices would be supported Id much rather birth at home (assuming I was low risk), but Im not sure Id feel as safe as I did in the private hospital, and that worry would probably force me to have a public hospital birth since I have no faith in my body anymore.

[LuluHB]

I've found all this discussion really interesting and its been great to see both sides argued calmly and respectfully for the most part.

I think that this is one of those topics though where there will be some who with further education and knowledge WILL change their views about where they wish to birth. For many though it will be a case of being better educated about "the other side" but their own choices will remain unchanged. I am a huge supporter of home birth, but would never, ever choose one for myself. Jennifer13's birth story left me in tears because it was just so beautiful and perfect, but its not for me. I respect the reasons why the ladies on BB choose homebirth.

I have had two great births in private hospitals where I felt completely in control of events, my body and then my baby at all times. I don't know if I've just been lucky, or if the homework I did paid off in that I have the benefit of private health cover and therefore have chosen an OB who believes his job is to stay out the way unless he's needed. I had great middies with both births, including the gorgeous midwife at DD1's birth who refused to leave me despite her boss telling her that her shift had ended and she wouldn't be paid overtime. My DH was incredibly supportive, ie did as he was told when he was told, which for the most part meant not touching me, not talking to me but just being there.

Spenceee - with all due respect, and I have to say I think you've handled the argument very well, you cannot possibly understand completely where these ladies are coming from. Men are amazing creatures - I love mine dearly and would be terrified at the thought of doing this without him - but you don't have the emotional, hormonal, mental and physical factors that we have throughout pregnancy. Rational thought is obviously a huge part of the decision making process of where to birth, but there has been an enormous amount of discussion in this thread about faith in the body. I admire the women who have faith enough to birth at home. I don't. I have anxieties and nightmares about all the things that can go wrong, and so my faith is placed in the hands of medical staff in a hospital environment.

None of us are wrong. We're all making the best choices for ourselves AND our babies. What is important is that resources are there to support women and babies whichever way they choose to go.

[Maruschke]

The best outcomes at birth do happen with those things:

* Experienced (trained in birth)
* Known to the woman (stranger supporting you less likely to get better outcomes than someone known to you)
* Continuous care (not being left - someone there for you continuously)

All those three things give better results in birth. Your partner can not be all of those things, nor can an obstetrician or hospital midwife... and this is one of the first things my teacher, Rhea, taught me. It is why doulas have such great outcomes at births with their clients (we know the hugely impressive stats like 50% less c/s, less PND, less NICU admissions etc) and why studies have come out showing that doulas get better outcomes than hospital staff or family members - even mum. Its not a flippant comment. I'll post the link to the studies.

Here ya go.

https://www.bellybelly.com.au/forums...ds-164383.html

This would also be true for an independent midwife in a hospital setting or a homebirth - because they work for you not the hospital.

Doulas at Birth - What Is a Doula And Why Do So Many Women Want One?



Are these not better outcomes? Of course you're also guaranteed who you're going to get and their philosophy too. I would rather not roll the dice with something I will remember all my life, and something that may change my body (and baby) and what happened to it, all my life.

Now you are going back to raw statistics. But the deal with the HB argument is that the statistics don't take into account the differing desires of each of us. I do not want a middie in my space constantly when I birth. I want it to be just me and DH. I don't like giving birth in front of people I know... I'd feel a bit weird having a friend there, and it sounds like you have become friends with your private middie. Hubby is absolutely fantastic at knowing my needs, when I am comfortable and when I am not. When to be silent and when to speak. It really is just a horses for courses type deal and an independent middie is not the one size fits all solution.

[HotI]

Now you are going back to raw statistics. But the deal with the HB argument is that the statistics don't take into account the differing desires of each of us.

Whose HB argument are you talking about?

[Cassius2]

I do not want a middie in my space constantly when I birth. I want it to be just me and DH. I don't like giving birth in front of people I know... I'd feel a bit weird having a friend there, and it sounds like you have become friends with your private middie. Hubby is absolutely fantastic at knowing my needs, when I am comfortable and when I am not. When to be silent and when to speak. It really is just a horses for courses type deal and an independent middie is not the one size fits all solution.

but your IM doesnt have to be constantly in your space you call them when you want them, you tell them to go when you want. in my case, she went and did her thang in the other room and only came in intermittently for a doppler check here and there or to place a cool washer on my neck. in my case, the fact that i built a strong rapport with my IM meant that she knew me intrinsically well enough to guage when to leave me alone or when to check in. it is hard in a forum such as this to properly describe this unique relationship.

One thing that does stand out for me is that, for the vast majority, people who have had a HB and/or the support of an IM never, ever look elsewhere for their care in subsequent pregnancies. there is never even a moment of thinking about where to birth or with whom. IMO i believe this is comes down to the fact that the uniqueness of the relationship (and not necessarily to be mingled with 'friendship'...i am not friends with my IM, i love and trust her as an IM but beyond that there is no relationship for example) means that all needs are met, not only for birthing mothers, but for the entire family (partners and children included).

as for men in the birth space, i am all for it. of course, it is up to the birthing family to choose, and in our case it was the right choice. I love the fact that there is supportive research showing that fathers present in the birth space have similar hormonal reactions to the birthing mother (most notably a super increase of oxytocin!), this all helps that wee little baby (or babies ) feel loved, safe and supported and for me, that is just awesome!

I love Spencees comment that it is about assessing what is a good outcome. Such a valid point, and one, that with our awesome access to good health, nutrition and education becomes much deeper than simply leaving it at a healthy baby and/or healthy mother. For me, a good outcome can encompass many things: for example a friend gave birth at home to a baby that (unknowingly) was born with a severe genetic condition. had this child of been born in hospital he would of died. as it stands the neurologist at the NICU where he was safely transferred have lauded the IMs handling of the situation and the life-saving measure of delayed cord clamping (his cord was kept intact until hours after birth in the hospital. this child is now a happy, mostly healthy little boy going on almost 2 years old.

In my personal case, a good outcome is one that also encompasses an outcome where a woman and her family are not left traumatised by her care providers actions. For others, it will mean something else etc. as Marushcke has mentioned, different horses for courses. Ultimately, what we are all hoping to achieve are happy families that can look back on this time of welcoming new life as one of joy, not of regret, fear or pain.

In my case, this could only be achieved at home.

[treacle]

Good point. I agree I think the arguements are contradictory. I am homebirth who vaccinates. Saying that I don't feel strongly for or against vaccination I just don't find the anti-vac arguements particularly convincing.

It's a bit like driving in a car or going on a plane, yes there is a risk there but the risk is small enough that the benefits outweigh.

[treacle]

(in the same regard it could be possible for a HB plan to go out the window if you had a fast labour that went down before the MW could be make it there and/or the pool could be filled etc. I would think that this would be similiarly scary especially if there was a complication but I would expect this to be a very rare occurence)

if there were a complication then sure but usually in that situation (a fast labour) nothing really serious goes wrong (although I do know of cases where the baby was in pain, blood blisters, from it being so quick).

this happened to me - fast labour & MW did not get there on time, no time to fill pool, & it was AWESOME!! gave birth in the bath on my own, total bliss. luckily my MW had mentioned to me the week before what to do in that situation tho (& reassured that it would be fine if that did happen), as if i hadn't had that convo i think i would have been more nervous. It was a hospital homebirth program by the way.