Would you go into debt for your childs secondary education?

[Liz]

Awww Liz I don't think people are suggesting in this thread that those who have private education are better... That's not what I have heard here.

No I didn't say it was here.. it's what I experienced at work. People that went to private schools on the expensive side of Sydney. I don't like that this attitude can be formed just because their parents paid for a fancy school. But then they can get that attitude just living in some rich areas LOL.

But it does come down to the importance you place on education. We (DH & I) prefer to have a more balanced view of it, that it's not THE thing thats going to make or break our kids. There is more to life than academics & sports. We won't discourage education, and will be encouraging them to strive for what they want to do, of course, but we aren't going to be placing such focused importance on it, if that makes sense.

[Phteven]

Meh! School schmool!!
I know a couple of people who didn't enter into formal education until they were over 10 and they went on to acheive university degrees (one of them was my mother who moved around a lot because of WW2). So my life experience tells me that people can be well adjusted and well educated without the benefit of primary school.
As for high school - I posted an article above about a student from a school that isn't even in the top 100 for HSC achievements who attained amazing grades.
I figure that attitude of the student is more important than the school they attend.

TBH I often feel that the education system these days is more about training our children than educating them. In order to qualify as a school they all have to agree to teach the state syllabus.

[Bathsheba]

A school's culture is probably the second most influential aspect of a child's life after home life. I think it's appropriate to send you child to a place that reflects that of your home life and family values. I value self respect, respect for others and respect for property at home and I feel that I need to pay to have this replicated at my DD's school. I don't really care so much about the academic side of things. I believe that the brightest person will fail if they don't have these forms of respect (for self/others/ property). My DD's school is VERY big on fostering compassion within their students. The students have a very high profile and (compulsory) participation in the local community... my DD regularly goes to the local retirement villages as part of the school's community service program. Becoming an engaged member of community doesn't just happen... it has to be guided. I'm not saying all private/independent schools manage this better than public schools... just that I have found one that does. The school also has very high statistics for girls continuing on to Melbourne Uni... about 3/4 each year... but that doesn't really bother me... I just want my DD to become a caring and engaged member of society... she can grow up to be the local garbage collector as far as I'm concerned... but I just want her to share my values.... as any parent would.... and these are the values promoted at her school.

[Inanna]

Mmm I get that Bath. That's why I struggle with DD high school. Whilst it has some values I share - the respect for self and others thing to me gets a bit lost in the way the kids dress and behave in public.

However at the younger kids school that is the big reason why I chose that school for them. Because it replicates what I hope to achieve at home. And the times I fail it's picked up at school...

There is a no junk food, no packaged food, no sugar, meat food policy - whilst we eat a bit of meat at home the rest is so very very much part of what I believe we should be teaching kids. That those cool individual serves cost the environment plenty with landfill. That crap food = crap output. Etc etc.

Also for me the spirituality and the exploration of that is important. The respect for evry living creature and for the value of each and every person. Non violent communication. Non violent toys. All the stuff that I have always followed.

So for me I had to pay to get the continuation of what I hope to achieve at home.

I am happy to do that and will continue to do that.

I agree with Bron that education is now more about training than learning. That troubles me too.
I have big issues with elitisim so the private school mentality thing sticks in my neck a bit. The labels, the right car, right address, right clothes etc etc...

Having said that that happens at DD state school also...

[Astrid]

I think too I don't like the attitude that some come of private school with, that they're a cut-above the rest of us (experienced this at work... with people I was working alongside! How exactly did it get them further ahead than me when we're working alongside each other??) I mean.. once they go to uni, they will be mingling with public school people anyway.. heaven forbid! LOL.

I find the work attitude to private schooling interesting. Pre children, I was once advised by one of my managers that if I were to have children that would need to be privately educated otherwide I would not be able to get promotions Nothing about what was best for the children, but for some reason how I chose to educate had a major influence on how worthy I was at work. Any increase in salary due to promotion would be eaten up by school fees and I would have been worse off financially. I have now turned my back on that type of career.

[Bathsheba]

I have been pleasantly surprised by the lack of elitism at both schools my DD attended. This was a preconceived idea of private schools that DH struggled with too... until we went along to an open day and saw for ourselves the types of families that were going to send their girls to these schools... there were ALL sorts. I can honestly say that most families are perfectly normal and down to earth. A good percentage of dads, for example, are tradies... they rock up to collect their daughters splattered in paint in their overalls. Some of the mums can be materialistic and obviously fashion conscious but it's no better when I collect my DS from his public school. I think it's unfair to say that kids who go to private school have the monopoly on brand awareness and snobbery Out of 100 girls in my DD's grade I know of 2 that are classic private school snobs... and they are not the popular ones at all... they are actually a bit of a joke.

Has anyone heard of the concept that goes along the lines of "if you want to change something it's best to do it from inside, from within enemy lines"? Well this is a bit how I feel about my relationship with private schools. Anyone who knows me knows that I'm not elitist... so given that I want the schools to replicate my values why would I want to damage my own children by sending them to a place that would teach them elitism??? The reality of the situation is that my DD wears clothes from Op Shops... at first she didn't want anyone to know... then one day a school friend commented on a bag that she was carrying and asked where she got it from... I overheard and said "Oh we bought it at Savers!" DD nearly died of embarrassment... but I added "it was only $4!" Well the girl was so impressed and said "is that where you get all that 80's retro clothes?" and DD nodded.... and there-after all the girls in DD's year have become huge fans of Savers'. Maybe I'm fortunate... my DD is a very popular girl... nothing like I was at the same age... and she is very vocal about quite a lot of social issues. She drives me crazy in many ways... but I am so proud of her ability to change the negative attitudes of her friends. Change from within.

Also, I find that there is a kind of reverse snobbery in some demographics that is just as bad. I encountered this when I was at school. Where I went to school there were 3 distinct demographics. Farmers kids, Well off kids (who lived on Snob Hill) and the equivalent to Housing Commission kids. I straddled two of these groups... my extended family were farmers but we lived near Snob hill in a brand new house and all that "stuff" I was talking about. Well don't worry... I was constantly brought down to earth by kids who decided I needed constant reminder that because I had a nice house I was no better than anyone else. And they were quite mean about it... as an adult I can see that they were taking out all their anger on me... just passing on all the taunts that they had got at home maybe. But essentially I ashamed to say that i learnt to be afraid of disadvantaged kids from a young age
How, as a shy kid who wore glasses with a patch (and ruthlessly teased for it) was I meant to process that these kids were damaged kids and not born mean? Even now I have a sensitivity to people like that who are hell bent on bringing me back down to their level of self esteem. If I'm honest I just don't want my kids to have to process that at school. I want them to grow up compassionate people so I want to have more control over the exposure they have to poverty. We use public transport daily and that teaches my kids alot about the reality of life... unlike those who use private transport and keep themselves safe in their cars away from the filthy masses. We go to Op Shops and at church my kids mingle and talk with refugee kids from a very bleak area a few suburbs away. So rest assured my kids, if I have any say in it, will not grow up with elitist attitudes. And maybe, like my eldest... may end up having some influence over other people free of the challenges of poverty.

[Cricket]

Just thought I'd pop in with this minor aside about community involvement
In my province, it has become law that every child must have a 30 volunteer hours documented before they can graduate from highschool. Our highschool adds ten hours on to that requirement for their own diploma.
Not a bad idea, I think. Might be something to recommend to your own school.... ?

[widdly]

I love that idea Cricket

[Amity]

Ok I might get flamed for this, but anyway....

My parents are both teachers. They are wonderful people, and have worked in public schools, private schools and Catholic schools. I have so much respect for them as people, and as educators.

My family has always put a high degree of emphasis on education. My three siblings and myself all went to the local Catholic primary school (we are Catholic). I hated every minute of that primary school, as I was tormented and bullied the whole way through. It was one of the most awful experiences of my life. Most of those girls went to the local Catholic girls' secondary school, which is one of the "elite" two Catholic girls' schools in Melbourne with fees about $20K for Year 12 (currently). I didn't want to go to that school, so ended up sitting for scholarships to various different independent schools. I ended up at a wonderful independent girls' school, and have the most marvellous friends, memories and experiences from that school. I would, without a thought, send my daughter there (were I to have one). My brothers both went to the elite Catholic boys' school, again with fees of over $20K per year (currently). My younger sister also attended the school I attended.

My parents paid for us to attend these schools, on teacher's salaries. My mother was a SAHM for 13 years, so it was just my Dad at work. They went into debt, increased their mortgage, sacrificed family holidays and their own needs, just to pay for our private school education.

And my local high school is one of the top 3 in Victoria. We could have gone there for free.

Why did my parents do all they can to send us to private high schools? Because they believe that we obtain a better education in a private high school. The fees that are paid by parents are utilised to improve facilities, pay higher teacher salaries, offer more and varied extra curricular activities, and so on. When parents pay significant sums for their children to attend a private school, this tends to "weed out" those who are attending school because they have to, rather than because they are expected to learn. The parents place a high value on education, and generally the children do too.

Certainly, in Melbourne, the high school you attend is a vital point when looking for employment. I got my first job (at Target) pretty much because I attended the high school I attended. One of the first questions you are asked at university is "what high school did you go to?" It is also emphasised at job interviews. I know of places who will give someone who attended a private school a job, over those who attended a high school.

So, is this elitist? Yes it is.

Is it fair? No it's not.

However, it is how it is. My sons attend a local primary school. It is an absolutely wonderful school. Most of the children there will go on to a private high school.

Even though I will be living near one of the best public high schools in Victoria, I will sacrifice everything, work three jobs, cash in my super, sell my house, and do anything necessary to ensure that I can afford for my children to attend a private high school. This is the value that I place on my children's education. And I will be doing it on my own - I very much doubt that my XH will provide any contribution to the school fees. I anticipate that by the time my boys attend high school, the fees will be $30K a year, each. This is something I will have to budget for - I will go without, I know that, but to me it will be worth it.

I believe in free education. I believe that the teachers in the public system are fantastic, and do the best they can with the budgets that they are allowed. I particularly admire those teachers who work extremely hard in low socio-economic areas to improve the children who live there and to increase their chances of achieving all that they can.

However it will be my choice to educate my children at a private high school. I will pay for this. Gladly.

[Liz]

No one should be flamed for the choices they make... we all have different priorities in life

Robert Kyosaki's books are an interesting read about how people get caught in the whole cycle of education and employment.. he calls it the rat race. He talks about how relying on employment as your only source of income is very insecure and talks about ways to break free of the rat race. However, he acknowledges that a lot reject his ideas because it's drummed into us that we need education and employment. Reading his books has been an eye opener in how people live financially, and has reinforced what we already thought about education and the focus that's put on it in order to be employable.

Anyway, that's really a different topic, just thought I'd throw it out there as something that has influenced our view on it

[Bathsheba]

If there's any proof that private high schools don't all churn out snobs there you have it! Well said Divvy. You are an inspiration chicky. If my DD turns out half as smart, compassionate and generally gorgeous as you I'll be thoroughly proud! The sacrifices are tough and when you're there I'll be barracking for you too. Your parents sound amazing too. Thanks for your contribution

Also I totally agree about the fees for private school being put to good use in paying the teachers higher wages. I noticed this when I was working at the ELC at my DD's first Girls' school. Higher wages, better facilities, smaller classes... it's very tempting to want to teach at one. But like you I deeply admire the teachers like my BIL who (for the past 30 years) have taught in Melbourne's most under-privileged schools. I plan to do this too at least for a few years... until I inevitably burn out I guess. Every child does deserve a good education... but it's like anything private... our homes our cars our entertainment: it's just reality that we give what we can to those in need... but at the end of the day none of us in this thread are going to choose to live in the same circumstances as the most impoverished... do we feel guilty for buying better stuff for our kids than the poor? Probably not... so why not a better education? If we can afford it? And also: for every child that is placed in a private school that's one less child the government has to pay for in the public system. I have heard the argument that public school parents are sick of (as tax-payers) subsidising private schools... but that's the same as me (a non driver) being cross about so much money being spent on roads.

But yes, like Divvy so wisely said: the current (divided) system is NOT fair... but that's how it is. Like so much in our life our kids have better lives than some kids... what's the alternative? Make sure everybody gets exactly the same deal... in everything?

[Liz]

the current (divided) system is NOT fair... but that's how it is.

oooh.. don't let the activists over in the expressing milk thread hear you say that! LOL.

[Bathsheba]

I know what you mean I think Liz... but it's a bit different standing up for your own lactating rights in the workplace compared to leveling out the whole education system. I just don't think that it's right on any level for every child to get exactly the same education. Could I ask for Religion to be offered at my public school (more than 1/2 an hour too... I'm talking about a full Anglican church ceremony once a week, hymns included)? Could I please ask for strict uniform codes (that's what DH and value). And could all schools please offer the same subjects? And could they start earlier (8.40am) and finish later (3.40) and have a 3 week holiday in the middle of the year? And could class sizes hover around 10 - 15 in the first year of school and be no larger than 22 in the senior years?

It's a fair comment Liz but in reality it's just not what parents want... I don't think anyone would be happy with a total level system. It would be like telling everyone to drive the same car.

[Liz]

yeah.. I was just being cheeky And you're right in one respect.. I don't want education being drummed into my kids as the thing that makes or breaks them.. that they won't get anywhere without it. If Private schools churn out people that believe it's the most important thing, then that's not for us

If an employer rejected my kids on the grounds of WHERE they went to school as opposed to their score, their presentation, their personality, then I would be telling them it wouldn't be a good environment to work in anyway.. find more reasonable people to work for.

Heck.. my DH failed his HSC twice, and is now very employable in an industry that he loves, and is more valuable than people coming out with uni degrees (same with my bro.. cept he didn't flunk high school.. just didn't go to uni)

I guess our own life experiences influence us more than anything else. If pieces of paper are what have gotten people through life before, then they know no different and pass this on to their kids. Just as we are passing on to our kids that you don't need pieces of paper or expensive schooling to tell you you're valuable or employable

[~*lilla*~]

For me personally, no I wouldn't. I went to a few very expensive private schools in high school and in all honesty, the public highs were just as good. Minus the huge fees and literally thousands of dollars per year for the uniforms.

But then again, even if I was really wealthy, I still wouldn't send them to an expensive private school

[Bathsheba]

Ok...Liz, I have worked something out LOL We misunderstand each other about something:

I don't want my children to value pieces of paper or doing an education for education's sake. I want my children to develop their natural curiosity... to become passionate about learning stuff that interests them... to not have all the enthusiasm for learning stuff squashed out of them... to not have to wait until every student is silent and sitting up straight to ask a question... I want my children's natural talents identified and shined so that they are bright in a NATURAL way that THEY find fulfilling. To get this they need inspired and inspiring teachers... who have the ability to actually teach (and not just discipline)... and who teach with passion.

This is why I said I don't care if my DD grows up to be a garbage collector... JUST as long as her talents are used somehow in life. When I attend parent teacher interviews the focus is on how my DD's personal talents are being polished. Personally I expect to hear that "hmmm, your DD is ruling the classroom and talking too much in class" (which they do tell me usually as needed via a phone convo) but instead I hear "Your DD has leadership potential, lets get her involved in the Future Leaders club". From what I know of the private system it has a strong focus on the individual... it is a system that makes something negative (ie outspokenness) into something positive... turns evil powers into good LOL

So do you "get" that I'm not seeking "bits of paper" for my kids? I honestly just want them to be respected in their learning journey and to be able to show respect to others and to most importantly shine as people, not just as future employees. Sounds like an interesting book too BTW (Robert Kyosaki's) I'll look into it

[Lulu]

I agree Div - a private education can certainly be the 'golden ticket' - and I most definitely agree with you there too Liz.
I KNOW my private education got me a couple of jobs over not having one. But I left them anyway cos I can rock it with the 'corporations of the world' no problem - I just don't want to.

The other thing to consider is how LONG that golden tickets lasts for. It doesn't last forever, there comes a point in your life where your secondary education or even Uni education doesn't mean much at all. It's the actual mark you make, not the paper in a frame on the wall...

xoxoxoxo

[Phteven]

I attended both private and public schools and the teachers who inspired me most were the ones I encountered in the public system, they had a passion for education that just wasn't evident in the teachers in any of my private schools.

I think the world is changing a great deal in terms of the golden ticket/old boys network. Most large companies no longer hire in house, instead they outsource it to HR companies who use aptitude testing, role-playing and so on to match jobs with the people best suited to them. Why? To avoid the costs associated with hiring staff that don't measure up via the old-boy network. I think that this attitude to hire is becoming more and more prevelant. I certainly wouldn't even bother looking at where a person went to school if I was resume checking and as Lulu pointed out the longer it has been since you left school the less relevant it is.