Should I let her stay over???

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

The rules when I was a teenager were...

No curfew, just when I could drive a phone call screaming "where are you, why aren't you home?" (after asking for a time to be in and being told "I don't mind, whenever.")

Friends could come round whenever and GIRLS could stay over, no questions asked. My little sis could have boyfriends stay over from about 14.

I could call my mother from about 12-13 and tell her I was staying out, no I didn't need anything bringing, that was fine. No checking up or even asking where I was. Which is good because it was usually at a boy's house!

The one time I did stay over after a mixed party with alcohol it was at a girl's house and my mother decided to scream down the phone that I was lying and she knew I was going to go to my boyf's house and have sex... OK, I was 19, but no I wasn't doing that!

We didn't have any clearing up rules, but I did it anyway. Of course I missed something and was very rude, lazy and ungrateful because I never did anything. Every other mother thought we were great for our level of cleanliness after our parties!

The rules I would have liked would have been

A loose curfew (as many of the others have suggested).
Being asked where I was.
Knowing what level of "tidy" was appropriate.
Not screaming at me that I was having sex and lying when I said otherwise.
TV off by X time (not told off next day that it was "disappointing" we were watching films at 3am).
Whatever age boys can stay over at have it the same for when the others hit that age. Don't say that it's OK for one at 14 but not another at 16, or 17, 18 or 21... or in fact until less than a year before her wedding.

HTH.

[paradise lost]

Lulu, re: the "danger signal" thing, have you tried taking her a walk in a busy busy place and getting her to analyse people as to how she feels about them? I plan to do it with DD from when she's about 6 or 7, give her challenges like "Pick someone you think is safe and go ask the time, i'll wait here" because it hones their instincts and gives them confidence at that age and at your DD's age it gives her experience in using her gut to figure out if everything is ok or not. Violence and rape are like when i dog bites, you ALWAYS get some kind of warning, your gut will tell you "uh-oh, problem!" but kids need to learn to listen to that feeling, and apply it even to their own boyfriends if said boyfriend is drunk and acting weird (i'm sure those boys who were groping the drunk girl are NOT all sexual predators, but that youth, booze and her helplessness meant they turned a bit that way).

Teenage girls are usually hypercritical and scathing but it actually protects them well if they recognise a "creep" and turn that distaste on them.

Bx

[Lulu]

Actually Hoobs, I did that a few years ago. There was a horribly creepy guy at the local pool. I asked if she could pick something unusual out and she got him right away. I got her to tell me why etc. He was revoltingly obvious though. I told her to warn her friends when she sees something not right etc etc.

BBL, have some housework to catch up on...

[Phteven]

it hones their instincts and gives them confidence at that age and at your DD's age it gives her experience in using her gut to figure out if everything is ok or not. Violence and rape are like when i dog bites, you ALWAYS get some kind of warning, your gut will tell you "uh-oh, problem!" but kids need to learn to listen to that feeling, and apply it even to their own boyfriends if said boyfriend is drunk and acting weird (i'm sure those boys who were groping the drunk girl are NOT all sexual predators, but that youth, booze and her helplessness meant they turned a bit that way).

Teenage girls are usually hypercritical and scathing but it actually protects them well if they recognise a "creep" and turn that distaste on them.

Bx

I don't agree that you ALWAYS get some kind of warning. Often yes but we can't always trust our spidey senses - some people are smooth enough to get around them. In fact I would say that if we're over confident about our instincts we can run into trouble because we assume that if there was a problem our gut would tell us.
Ted Bundy was charming - he charmed his way into the confidence of young women and then killed them. A friend of mine once asked for moral support - he didn't like seeing his father because he had abused family members and friends. I went along for drinks not once but numerous times (it saved him from having to ask other people and explain why). The father was a very approachable and friendly person. Nothing outwardly creepy about him and a pillar of the community. Had I not known what he was I probably would have given him my number and befriended him. I'm not a very sheltered person and I have pretty good spidey senses but this particular guy wouldn't have set them off.
I think that if we emphasise our instincts too much we put children at risk of getting into stupid situations because their senses weren't tripped. Teenage girls in particular are easily convinced of their worldliness yet simultaneously rather innocent. It is a combination that makes them very vunerable.
So yes, encourage them to trust their instinct but temper that with the advice that there are situations they need to avoid regardless of how trustworthy a person my seem and that there are some people who won't set off alarms until it's too late to do anything about it.

[paradise lost]

LOL Dach, i must be way more suspicious than you, friendly and/or charming people always make me look closer. IME if people seem to good to be true they usually are.

Bx

ETA - also with people like BUndy he met many women who he dismissed as targets because they COULD sense something wasn't quite right with him. It's the same with all these situations, a teenage girl is inevitably going to be a target at some point, but she needn't become a victim, if that makes sense.

[kirsty_lee]

I agree dach.. the man that abused me is quite a professional person... and you wouldnt' pick it from a mile away. I too have good senses, but some people are just good at what they do kwim.

[Phteven]

Yeah Bec overly friendly people make everyone suspicious.
The point I'm making is that your instincts aren't going to pick 100% of the dangerous people you encounter so it's best emphasise avoiding dangerous situations. IMO to do otherwise can lead a young woman to believe that because she has the instinct to pick the creeps she can take risks with people she considers safe. Especially in light of the fact that teenage girls tend to over-estimate their worldliness and their abilities.

[paradise lost]

For those who are interested:

Techniques used by predators who appear "nice" to get you on side. These might be used in a one off situation they're trying to turn to their own advantage, or (harder to spot) over a long period of time in a friendship (from Protecting the Gift by Gavin de Becker).

1. Forced teaming - that's where they come into a situation and immediately start to act like a team player - "Oh gee, what are WE going to do about this? How can WE fix it?" even when the problem isn't theirs and you didn't ask for help.

2. Charm and niceness - little compliments, empathic remarks, like "My daughter was never as mature as you seem" or "my wife could not stay as patient as you" or "i remember how hard this age was but i don't remember coping as well as you are". It's hard to spot, and you need to be smarter than your potential threat to stay ahead - if someone is charming ask yourself "Why are they charming me?" if there is nothing they could want (your kid, control of the situation, your cooperation in something) then no worries, but if there is; red alert! Being aware of how people approach you is the biggest. If you ask someone for help you're unlikely to pick a predator (they are rare) but on the contrary if you are vulnerable and someone OFFERS help, they are more likely to be a predator because most predators don't hang out waiting to be asked for help to pick their victims.

3. Too many details. They will share experiences with you and because they are lying they give too many details, because it doesn't seem real to them (they know it's a lie). Like they might tell you they remember their teenage years were just the same way, when they were in school, you know the Academy, well, i went there, we had to wear these red hots you know, so dumb, but i used to "lose" mine all the time until my folks gave up buying them, and... When someone throws a lot of detail about you begin to lose track of how the conversation began and the fact that you're talking to a stranger. They feel familiar to you - you already know they hated the red hats they wore as a kid but you don't know, in fact, a single thing about them.

4. Typecasting - this is a predatory signal. It's an invitation to "prove them wrong" in a way which puts you right where they want you. For instance "I like to have secrets with big kids but i bet you're too little to properly keep a secret" or "I'd like to take your kid to the pool but i bet you're one of those over-protective parents who would never allow that" or "I'd give you a ride but i expect your parents told you not to go in cars with strange guys, and you look like an obedient sort". The gauntlet is down. This is often done in the middle of a lot of other statements (too many details!), so it might not feel like a challenge, you might just find yourself thinking "Wait, i don't do that! I'll show him!".

5. Creating debt. They offer something or do something which places you in debt to them. This could be anything, bad behaviour in a child tolerated and kept from the parents, alcohol given to a teenager, offering, unasked, to help you. Some people ARE kind, generous, helpful. But they too have a motive; that of their own generosity of spirit. Examining motive and intent takes only a moment and can make a big difference. A stranger who sees you struggling with baby, buggy and stairs who means well will offer help and help in the way they are asked. A predator might offer only specific help "Do you want me to carry the baby?" Whenever you're in trouble it's safer to pick a person your instincts like and approach THEM (while still being careful) than wait for help to be offered.

6. The unsolicited promise. "I promise to drive carefully" "i promise to get you home safe" "I promise i'll take good care of him". They are promising you the thing you are sort of worrying about - safety. But wait, you haven't agreed to their suggestion and haven't asked for their word on it. They're trying to convince you - why? Chances are if THEY try to convince you, even if you're not registering it yourself yet, you're feeling doubt about that person. That's your intuition. Heed it.

7. Not hearing "no". You gently declined their help/assistance/interest at the start but they ignored it as if they hadn't heard. If someone won't hear "no" they're either trying to get control or refusing to relinquish it. If you say no and they talk you round you have relinquished control to them.

I really recommend this book, it's fabulously useful and very easy to read.

Bx

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Bec, I know I am disproving a rule with the exceptions here, but reading the rules and things you lay down:

I am a possible child abuser because I chat to small children without their parents there and tell them they look nice. (Actually, other posts of yours have me worrying that I am a child abuser and I'm really worried for DS now because I'm doing everything wrong.)

My mother committed abuse on me by forcing me to hug and kiss people I didn't want to as a child.

One of my best mates I've known for most my life, he fits the above profile.
1 - he needs a babysitter so calls me telling me that "we have a problem" - it's ALWAYS my problem to solve! He does this when I need something, always the "we". He is just a very involved person.
2 - "Why doesn't my wife do the mum thing like you?" That was the last one! He knows my self-esteem issues and has involved himself in them, as usual, by in this case giving me stupid compliments.
3 - We have a shared past so I know the long, involved stories we BOTH tell are true. They're just too long-winded for most people.
4 - Yes. Usually to get me to help out in the Christmas play he's putting on because there's a part he can't fill. Or he wants to do a version of Lion King with 3 adults and 2 children... and we did it.
5 - He keeps telling me that he can afford to pay XYZ for me... but I'm not a charity case! I will not accept huge sums of money off a man I see as a brother - he has his own family to support.

OK, so he doesn't do steps 6 and 7. But he is a genuinely great guy and is looking out for me. You know what he wants? Someone who can look after the twins for a couple of hours sometimes if he has to go to the office and his wife is at work. He likes to keep in touch with old gaming buddies too and try to get us together for a weekend - although that hasn't happened for a bit due to small children in the last few years. I think he's a bit lonely (everywhere is for mums and babies, not dads and toddler twins) and he likes to take the edge off that.

I know your generalisations can help, but other times they just make me feel worried that I'm a nasty person and everyone will think I'm evil! I just think that genuinely loving, caring people are cast as abusers because some people use the same techniques in a bad way.

[paradise lost]

I'm sorry, obviously i wasn't very clear.

1. Forced teaming is when someone who isn't on the team assumed or implies they are. A friend who has known you for decades would indeed be considered by most as "on the team".

2. I would actually be suspicious of the implied criticism of his wife's parenting in this way. I'd be gutted if my DP said that about me to one of his female friends. Any chance he's wanted you all along?

3. Does he tell the long involved stories to people he has just met, or has not yet met but has just started talking at?

4. Typecasting is a general tool of social manipulation which can be used for good as well as evil. I will often say to someone that they're doing great because all they're lacking is self-confidence and then they WILL be doing great. The point is to see where that comment is coming from.

5. Again, the generosity of a friend you've known for years is not quite the same as someone you don't know or barely know making an offer of the same magnitude!

I too will say "hey handsome" to little boys i am meeting or "hey cutie" to little girls, but i don't then stop and offer to take said (whiny) little girl or boy off their parents hands so they can finish shopping in peace, say i want to take them to that (insert heavily detailed description) place down the street, and then promise to take good care of them!

I just think that genuinely loving, caring people are cast as abusers because some people use the same techniques in a bad way.

In studies done on men in prison for abusing children over 85% of them TRUTHFULLY believed the abuse they had commited was just an expression of love for the victim and not an act of abuse at all. Some said they were sure the child wanted it, enjoyed it, engaged in it knowingly or freely and saw it as a natural development of their friendship. Many felt that the effects of the abuse could not possibly be as bad as society and the law implied. So many abusers, especially those who know their victims well, will not necessarily cross the line and think they are definitely doing harm. Denial is a powerful tool, for abusers, the abused and parents/carers of the abused alike.

For this reason it is very important to pay attention to our interactions and spot when we are being manipulated and why. You seem to have a good handle on why your friend uses the manipulation he does, which is wonderful. If you can apply that awareness to all those around you, your DS stands a good chance of staying safe.

Bx