Babies Born April 1st - 15th 2008 #1

[Fire]

Leyla,

Human children are designed (whether you believe by millions of years of evolution, or by God, it doesn't matter) -- to nurse *very* frequently, based on the composition of the milk of the species, the fact that all higher primates (Primates are the zoological Order to which humans belong, higher primates include monkeys and apes) keep their offspring in the mother's arms or on her back for several years, the size of the young child's stomach, the rapidity with which breast milk is digested, the need for an almost constant source of nutrients to grow that huge brain (in humans, especially), and so on. By very frequently, I mean 3-4 times per hour, for a few minutes each time. The way in which some young infants are fed in our culture -- trying to get them to shift to a 3-4 hour schedule, with feedings of 15-20 minutes at a time, goes against our basic physiology. But humans are very adaptable, and some mothers will be able to make sufficient milk with this very infrequent stimulation and draining of the breasts, and some children will be able to adapt to large meals spaced far apart. Unfortunately, some mothers don't make enough milk with this little nursing, and some babies can't adjust, and so are fussy, cry a lot, seem to want to nurse "before it is time" and fail to grow and thrive. Of course, usually the mother's body is blamed -- "You can't make enough milk" -- rather than the culturally-imposed expectation that feeding every 3-4 hours should be sufficient, and the mother begins supplementing with formula, which leads to a steady spiral downward to complete weaning from the breast.

Sleeping through the Night
From:
Kathy Dettwyler's Thoughts on Breastfeeding
She is a very informed, experienced, nurturing anthropologist. The mainstream info we are given is largely incorrect. It started back when the Spocks of the child psych front insisted mothers "schedule" feeds, as bottle fed infants could go three to four hours and schedules were all the rage. However, back then (in my mother's day) many women couldn't breastfeed and couldn't figure out why, but it was the scheduling. Their kids were hungry and frustrated and their cries plugged up with a pacifier or rocking. Unfortunately, bfing goes hand in hand with cosleeping, otherwise long stints apart are essential to maintain sanity. I couldn't "Get up" all night to Ci! I'd die. So would all the other parents I know who don't pacify artificially or practise isolated sleeping.

I know it isn't much comfort to know it is normal while all our friends get all these chunks of sleep! I was very angry when I first learned and felt ripped off, like it was a secret kept from me until it was too late.

Night feeds are essential to keep infertile, too, for natural child spacing. Our milk is low fat, low protein, built for frequent feeds until solids are introduced. Even that won't change it that much for some babies.

from same site:

Is this convenient for parents? No!

Is this difficult for some new parents to adjust to? Yes!

No doubt about it, the gap between what our culture teaches us to expect of the sleep patterns of a young child (read them a story, tuck them in, turn out the light, and not see them again for 8 hours) and the reality of how children actually sleep if healthy and normal, yawns widely.

But the first steps to dealing with the fact that your young child doesn't sleep through the night, or doesn't want to sleep without you is to realize that:

* (1) Not sleeping through the night until they are 3 or 4 years of age is normal and healthy behavior for human infants.
* (2) Your children are not being difficult or manipulative, they are being normal and healthy, and behaving in ways that are appropriate for our species.

Once you understand these simple truths, it becomes much easier to deal with parenting your child at night. Once you give up the idea that you must have 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep at night, and view these nighttime interactions with your child as precious and fleeting, you get used to them very quickly.

BB has this on CC: the con of controlled crying

controlled comforting and sleep training

Trust your gut, hon. It will get better. I got Ci to go from waking hourly to waking two hourly to now waking three hourly (except from about 4am, when most babies start a feeding frenzy, which is, again - NORMAL ) by upping my intake of good oils and adjusting a few things in our daily life. How does he feed through the day? Is he taking in most of his feed at night? I have some other suggestions but I have to fly. This is what Ci does now:

Last feed at 6/7pm
may sleep/wake until 8/9pm - stays asleep all night, feeds while sleeping
feed at 11/12am (4 to 5 hours since last feed)
feed 2/3am (3 hours since last feed)
feed 4am (about 1.5/ 2 hours since last feed)
off and on from then on, sometimes he will sleep until 6 though.

Since my supply settled, he is getting more fatty milk also. He was living on sugary foremilk for the first few months of his life as I had such a massive supply. He wasn't getting the fatty stuff which helps longer sleep.

This too shall pass. Can you get a daytime nap? will he nap with you so you can get some day sleep?

[Fire]

cross post

I also suspect that he was a little cold last night as he really stopped fussing once he was under the warm covers with me.

he may just want to be with you. who wouldn't? If all he gets of you at night is a hold while breastfeeding then that's what he'll take. He won't stop wanting you just because it's night time.

Warmth to you, I know your struggle. It's very hard to release to acceptance. I'm Gnostic, so this has been a wonderful opportunity to learn some virtues I sorely lack!

[Beatrix]

Leyla- in regards to the feeding through the night MJ does it, 2-3 feeds a night but she sleep uch better in bed with me and i get alot more slep with her there too

In regards to baby food, its not recomended that babies have it b4 6 mths as their stomachs are just not mature enough to handle it, and it more often then not results in a restless baby from a stomach ache. All bubs needs for the first 6mths of there life is BM or formula



Yeah i know Mj is normal to be honest i am not to good with tummy time cause if i leave her on the floor she gets poked and prodded and yeah ends up getting upset cause the older two just cant help themselves

[Leyla]

Fire and Beatrix - thanks so much for all the info and encouragement. To be honest, I'm managing with the tiredness as best I can, and I never really felt that he was abnormal until people started telling me he was. All the other mums at my mothers group have their babies 'sleeping through' and made me feel that Jack is abnormal. I know i should not let them get to me, but it does. You've really made me feel so much better. It just seems like I'm the only one with a baby that wants to feed all night!

[alittlegrubi]

Leyla The farex discussion has been had in the later half of the month group and they all say it makes little to no difference to the sleep pattern.
I've found with DD that she wakes heaps and I was thinking that it was feeding she wanted as she was always willing to take the boob, but worked out after my Mum had her for a night and she slept from 8pm to 2am and then until 6.20am that the problem was wind. Do you take the time to burp DS after a feed? I was too lazy, she was asleep from the feed and I didn't want to wake her, but now if I burp her and then give her a quick topup to resettle she sleeps much better, when we haven't got other issues going on.
I must admit though, after midnight I will bring her into the bed with me and agree with Fire that part of it is they just want to be with you. Like last night, because I'm trying to get DS to sleep in his room rather than the nursery I started out the night in his room and when I went in and got DD for her 11pm feed, her little eyes lit up when I picked her up and took her to the bed. Putting her back in the cot only lasted an hour an a half, where having her in the bed from 12.30am onwards tends to make for better sleep as even if she stirs I'm not having to fully waken to attend to her.
Rest assured Leyla you're not the only one and with DS he wasn't sleeping through until he was over 18months and from 14 months he was on formula and solids, so i doubt farex makes a difference. All babies are different remember that and know whatever works for you is the right thing.

[mgm]

Leyla you are definitely not the only one! DD has been waking every 1.5 - 2 hours at night to feed. I'm all too familiar with this pattern from my DS who did the same thing until fully weaned. Introducing solids didn't help at all. Early introduction of solids is linked to development of allergies later so personally I wouldn't rush to do it, as tempting as it is to try anything that *might* give you more sleep.

fire how are you and ci going? any improvement?

beatrix is MJ all better now? DD isn't rolling yet either - maybe the bigger babies have the advantage!

I have FINALLY managed to get DD to nap out of arms/sling - she only goes 30-40 minutes, but I treasure every moment!! It gives me a little time to play with DS and do the dishes.

as for 'routines' DD goes into nighttime sleep mode around 8pm (same time as DS goes to bed). there are usually a couple of wakeups between then and 11pm when I usually get to bed (taking her with me). She wakes up 'for the day' sometime between 7.30 and 8.30.

no time for more personals, but hi to everyone i've missed.

[bellelass]

All quiet here. Lila's still waking early to come to our bed but I'm ok with it. She's also been a little day fussy which is weird for her but I think its the chilly weather. Ikeep her rugged up but still... The house is pretty cold.

Leyla- good to see you back.I think thingd like sleep patterns are mostly a matter of luck that we have little control over. You can do it all "right" and they still get up. With my three older brothers my mother got up with them every other hour til about 14 months. I'm with the others on waiting to do solids. They're just too little, their stomachs aren't fully ready yet.

Mgm- Congrats on the day nap! That's so great, gives yo a little time without which is nice. Can't get Lila to nap to save my life....

Janine- Hope things are getting a little better with CI and you can find some sanity. I know you probably don't like the idea, but have you taken him to the dr? You never know, he could take one look at CI and say "Oh that's such and such, do this and it will help." Unlikely, but possible..?

Nettie- I was reading that exclusively fed babies between 4-6 months burn about 500 calories. When I used to work out every day that's how much I'd burn doing an hour and 20 minutes of cardio. Of course, I'm not getting the same heart work out as if I was on a machine but there you go. I wish my knees weren't so rubbish, it would be lovely and easy to go for morning runs. Oh well.

Beatrix- How's MJ doing, and how are you holding up??

Sarah- I hope your AF makes an appearance. Oh man. I had a little of that the other day, I stopped and thought "Oh god I haven't had one in a while" but she showed up the next day. Whew. Just don't know if I trust the mini-pill, you know? In fact, after getting pg accidentally I am pretty suss about all birth control.

No 7pm bedtimes, hah. I'm not going to work against her natural body clock though. If she goes to sleep at 11 and gets up at 9 til she's in school thats ok. I never understood why it is inherently wrong to keep a later schedule. Mum acts like its some scandalous thing.

No rolling, not really. If she's on a slight incline she can. Just heaps of wriggling. Wriggling everywhere. Constantly. Girl wants to GO...

Hello to anyone I've missed.

[Fire]

Ci is not better yet, but we have a plan cos I'm pretty sure I know what is causing it. I have taken him to the doc and gotten poo and wee and hair and saliva tests. Some are still due back. I feel a little better about it. I get frantic when he is screaming in frustration and his face is a mess, I feel so helpless. And now the substance I need to fix it only comes in drops without lactose here, which contain colors and saccharin!! For children!! Totally stupid. And the powder contains lactose and we're off dairy so that's pointless too. Until I can find nystatin in pure form, we're stuck. I'm looking online now. I'm also going to call around to chemists. He is going to chiro and had homeopathy today. So if nothing else, he will be fit as a fiddle in no time from bringing his little body in balance.

I'm glad you liked the info, Leyla. It is hard, even on this board, when others have babies that sleep even when bfing and we feel like there might be something wrong with ours and feel ripped off that we can't get that good sleep yet. But we'll get there. There are more of us than you think.

[Nettie]

Nettie- I was reading that exclusively fed babies between 4-6 months burn about 500 calories. When I used to work out every day that's how much I'd burn doing an hour and 20 minutes of cardio. Of course, I'm not getting the same heart work out as if I was on a machine but there you go. I wish my knees weren't so rubbish, it would be lovely and easy to go for morning runs. Oh well.

Sorry Steph, but I'm not sure what you mean? Do you mean exclusively breastfed babies? And do you mean that breastfeeding them burns the calories? Sorry - got baby brain bad here at the moment!

Anyone else looking forward to the Olympics? I love them and am really excited to be home from work this year while they're on!

I went in to work today to have lunch with a couple of the 'girls' and have organised to go to a 2 day seminar/meeting thing the week before I was due to return in Sept. This will give DH the practice he needs before the 'real thing' begins and will give me some much needed flexitime up my sleeve! Now I just hope my manager agrees (I think she will).

Not much else happening here. Sick of the cold weather - we're not getting out of the house much and we're probably going to get a massive power bill from the heater being on all day... yikes Nothing I can do about it though - we need to keep it warm for Liam.

[jenh30]

Hello Ladies

I've been following this group since we were all pregnant, but was to shy to say hello. I thought it was time to join in, since i feel like i know you all anyway My daughter Isabelle was born on the 11th April and due to complications ended up being a planned ceasar. I have an older boy, James who just turned 5. He was an emergency ceasar and it was horrible, Isabelle's was a much nicer, calmer experience.
We had a lot of feeding issues early on, big boobs, flat nipples, tongue ties. I expressed each feed until about 6 weeks, when due to the stress of expressing and a very cranky baby, she went onto formula full time.
When she was about 6 weeks old, i got her up for a feed in the night and when i laid her down she started to choke and seemed to stop breathing for a minute, very scary. i rang the MCH line and explained all the symptoms she'd been experiencing and they suggested she may have silent reflux. i was a little skeptical, but after reading a bit, all her symptoms...the crying, back arching, gagging, generally very cranky and upset, seemed to point towards that. So we raised all her bedding, made sure she was always elevated and out her onto anti-reflux formula and we've never looked back.
She is now 15 weeks and last night she went down after a feed at 6 pm and woke up at 8 am the next morning....she's been doing that for about a month now. I have no idea how this happened!
my son still wakes up during the night at 5 and joins us in bed!
During the day she only seems to catnap for about 40 mins, but im guessing that it's a trade off with the 12+ hours at night.
I cant believe how much they've all changed in the last few months. My girlfriend had a baby last tuesday and she looks like the tiniest little thing next to my puffball
Hope everyone is doing well and i may come out of hiding another day to say hi

Jen

[Butterfly_Princess]

Hey!
Welcome Jen Hope to see you around more often
Sorry girls, ive been MIA because ive been hanging aroundon the Belly Buddies due Sept 1-15 2008 updating the girls about a member. Man its a blast from the past hanging around in the belly buddies threads, takes me back to the days of pregnancy. I actually miss being pregnant. Apart from the aches and uncomfort.
Isabell is pretty much rolling. She hasnt done one fully, purely for the fact i stopped her, if i hadnt of she would have rolled right off my lap, didnt want that. She has gone onto her side on the floor or change mat, but nothing more, i think she got a bit distracted or something. Im so proud of her. She loves talking though, she talks ALL day long, at the top of her voice..its adorable.
Well im off, Ben wants to use the computer.

[Fire]

hi jen! you lucky duck on your little sleeper there! *jealous*

[Nettie]

Welcome Jen! If you've been lurking for a while, you'll know how friendly & supportive these guys can be. Don't hesitate in posting - the more the merrier!

My gosh darned mouse scroll wheel is broken and I feel like my right arm's been cut off!! Grrrr!

Must go - Liam's getting grumpy in his cot (might be getting tired or just lonely!). Will post again later...

[Leyla]

Grubi - thanks for the info re farex. I guess deep down I knew there was no magic fix for the sleeping through thing. I think I just have an alert baby on my hands who likes to feed all night! I'm trying to make the most of it and treasure every moment with him, the last thing I want to do is to end up resenting him for waking so often. And to be honest there have been moments at 5 in the morning when it's the 6th feed since 10pm that I start to feel angry (I mean I'm only human!).

Steph - I think you are right about some babies just not being ready to sleep through. Someone did say to me that they thought it might be to do with size. Jack is a little on the small side (has not reached 6kg yet) so that might be part of it. He's just really lean is already 64 cm long. Love the info on calorie burning and breastfeeding. Unfortunately feeding makes me crave sugar, fat and all the bad stuff. Sometimes I sit in bed at 4 in the morning absolutely STARVING, but then I am being drained all night!

Fire - I really hope that you manage to get things sorted for Ci, must be so hard on you both. Food allergies are so hard to narrow down and beat. I take my hat off to you for all the hard work you have done so far. Must take a lot of patience.

Nettie - I'm stuck inside too! And the heater has pretty much gone day and night since we brought Jack home... I'm not looking forward to the next bill! But what can you do right?

Jen - So glad you popped in! It's a big step to move from lurker to poster! What a good little girl you have! Must have been a big relief to have a good sleeper the second time around!

Meg - Don't you hate the side rolling whilst changing? Makes dirty nappies an extreme sport!

Big hello to anyone I've missed. I'm feeling soooooo exhausted today. Another shocker night. But I do love him so! He is lying here beside me blowing raspberries at me and trying to sit up. Makes him look like a turtle that has fallen on his back! At least he wakes feeling well-rested and happy!

[Sequoia]

Leyla - Baxter is still under 6kg but we comp feed, he has a FF bottle after his last BF at night and I think this helps him to sleep through.

Jen - welcome to our little group! What a great sleeper you have.

Nettie - I'm looking forward to the Olympics too! My parents leave for Beijing next Thursday, they are big hockey fans and one of our very good family friend's is in the Women's Hockey team for the first time, it's all very exciting!

Me - Baxter was weighed yesterday and put on 475gms in 2 weeks, that's his biggest gain EVER!! He's now 5.550kg and almost 62cm in length.

We had a shocking night last night. DH and I were both v tired, so we gave him his bottle at 8pm instead of 10.00pm, bad idea. We were woken almost every hour. Poor little munchkin, he obviously doesn't like it when we stray from his routine. Lesson learnt huh?

Hi to everyone else.

SG
xo

[Nettie]

Shoegal - That's fabulous - I guess I'll have to cheer extra hard to the women's hockey! Can you reveal who it is that you know so I can look out for her? That's fabulous about Baxter's weight! I haven't weighed Liam for a few weeks (like 3 or more) but it sounds like Baxter is catching up to him! He was 58.5 cms and 5.22 kgs then...

Leyla - at nappies being an extreme sport! Even told my DH that one and we both had a giggle! Liam loves having his nappy off now and kicks like mad the second we remove it. When it's got poo, that makes it VERY dangerous!

We had a nice sunny day here today (and I didn't have any washing to hang out until too late - grrrr) so we went for a walk. Unfortunately the walk took us to Maccas where I had the McAustralia burger & a McFlurry! So much for the diet, huh? I did say no to fries & soft drink though!

[bellelass]

I'm getting all growly and angry at night time again. I know I should count my blessings but its just really crap at the moment. Lila's sleeping from 10-11 until 4am. Will not sleep later. I bring her to bed and she does a massive feed so fair enough I don't begrudge her my sleep if she's hungry. But then she wants to play and pushes away the breast! I'd just turn over and ignore her but it wakes up DH and he hates her chatting and flailing about in the bed at night. I got so upset this morning and got up with her around 6am after trying to put her back to sleep for two hours. Changed her and made myself some porridge, resigned to starting my day 3 hours early. Then of course she fell asleep before I'd finished eating it. So co-sleepers, tell me what you do when baby wants to play?

Other than severely restricted sleep, things are fine. Took Lila to Ikea, she was so good in her sling just looking all around. No fussing in the car either, and I didn't have to feed her while out. ( I love putting together Ikea furniture. Its like Lego sets for grown ups. DH and I got a cute pair of bedside tables and raced each other putting them together. hehe. ) The next day I took her out to the shops and the same thing, just quiet and looking around. Might try taking the bus down to CBD and go see some art or something soon. God that would be nice.

Nettie- Good work interpreting my typos.. Lately when I'm on the net I'm lying in bed feeding so the typing quality goes down. One of the things I really enjoy about living here is that Aus is a "small town" of a country. Like watching the state of origin and DH pointed out a guy he went to school with, and another guy from his town who's mother did the food at our wedding. And then on the olympic swim team there's Sophie Eddington who is a good friend's older sister. Small world... Anyway yes looking forward to the olympics heaps. I watch a disgusting amount of TV, might as well watch something interesting.

Jen- Hello! You shouldn't be shy, just jump on in and chatter. Silly. Sounds like you've had a rough time of it, I'm so happy for you that things are going well. Babies are so lovely and wonderful when everything's working out ok.

Leyla-I know what you mean about feeling guilty for resenting being up all night feeding. Last night I thought I would scream or have a tantrum or toss her out to sleep with the chooks. I think its ok to feel that way sometimes, everyone does. I cried to DH this morning about being a bad mummy. He said what did I do and I said well I get mad at her sometimes. He told me that doesn't make me a bad mum, just human.

Janine- thinking of you and Ci all the time, I hope things are getting better/getting to the bottom of his eczema.

Hello to Meg and Beatrix...

4mo immis next week for us. Not looking forward to it. The fussiness. Though she did sleep heaps after the last set, maybe I can get some shut-eye...

[Sequoia]

Nettie - her name is Kobie McGurk.

Seeya all, I'm off to Perth for a few days, shopping and a friend's birthday drinks.

Have a great weekend.

SG
xo