What is the role of suffering?

[Phteven]

What is the role of suffering?
Why do bad things happen to good people?

Because I'm lazy I'm just pasting my posts from another thread as a starting point.

It does seem bewildering sometimes but I guess the thing about faith is that we can believe that, to quote from Desiderata,
"whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should".
From a purely statistical point of view suicide is far less common amongst people of faith (all religions) than amongst athiests and agnostics. I tend to think that whilst Allah never gives us a load heavier than we can carry it must seem too heavy to some people, especially if they have no-one to share it with so it's a matter of the perception of the load rather than the load itself. I think there is some truth in that old allegorical story about the footprints in the sand but in turn we have to be willing to let ourselves be carried.
I agree that there is a gulf between what is written and what is practiced - in Islam we believe that this is because we are only human. Humans are not perfect but there is something noble in striving to be better; so despite our flaws and stumbles we can be forgiven.
In regards to the example of a child being raped I think it comes down to trust - I trust in Allah's justice. The man who does this will be judged and punished and the girl who suffered this will be rewarded for her suffering. From the Islamic perspective life on this earth is over in the blink of an eyelid; no matter how ghastly or pleasant it is it's nothing in the face of eternity.

I think that for me it seems a bit simplistic to say that I would only believe in G-d if there was no suffering. Terrible things happen every day but I don't blame G-d, I blame people. As a Muslim I see suffering as something that can be blessing as well as a curse, just as lack of suffering can be a curse, as well as a blessing.
I understand that if you don't belive in an afterlife it would seem obscene and pointless that a child is born who will only suffer and die in childhood. If you do believe in an afterlife then you also believe that that child will go to heaven and the suffering of her eathly existance will be as nothing.
snopes.com: Infant Rape Cures AIDS


Deb, what is the Buddhist belief regarding suffering?
Maybe I should start a new thread outside the Christianity forum

[Inanna]

Thanks Dachlostar!

From my perspective (I am Buddhist) we should thank those that cause us pain for they are our best teachers.

Suffering is what brings us to our knees - when something doesn't hurt us we don't learn. I don't agree that we learn when all is well - well we do but if we think about our lives. When there is a time of great distress we make a choice. We make a choice to grow, to open our hearts - or to cringe, become bitter and closed. Suffering from a Buddhist perspectives gives us our best chances of growth and expansion. Learned and wise Buddhists can greet difficulty much as an old friend "welcome - I am here to learn from you". But of course this takes courage and stillness of mind.

"Thinking that we can find some lasting pleasure and avoid pain is what in Buddhism is called samsara, a hopeless cycle that goes round and round endlessly and causes us to suffer greatly".

"Ours is a society of denial that conditions us to protect ourselves from any direct difficulty and discomfort. We expend enormous energy denying our insecurity, fighting pain, death and loss, and hiding from basic truth of the natural world and of our own nature."

[Heaven]

We've probably already talked about it in the other thread but I'll add my view (from a Christian perspective) here too.

Firstly, there is suffering in the world because God has given us free will. We can choose what we do and unfortunately some people choose to do bad things that hurt others or themselves.

Also, suffering can serve the purpose of bringing us closer to God. Suffering is inevitable in this world because we all have sinned and because of that we long to be closer to God, for Him to help us through and to receive His promise for eternal life. If there was nothing bad in the world why would we want God? What would we have to gain?

I believe that even in the hardest times those with faith in God will be able to overcome suffering. God can give us hope because we know there is more to life than what we have in this world.

[Bathsheba]

Just briefly as my kids are being too noisey for me to compose anything eloquent ATM:

I'm a better person for having suffered. I believe in the saying "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". However this doesn't mean I rejoice when others suffer (my logic doesn't extend to believing that suffering is good for other people). When I come across someone who is suffering I know that it is a chance for me to heal myself as well as ease their suffering. Because my suffering has usually been in isolation (of one kind or another) I cannot bear to see others suffering in isolation.

I don't become overly distressed by "needless suffering" when i am functioning on a 'higher plane'. It upsets my 'day to day' me... but ultimately I know that no suffering is pointless. I trust God's plan enough to believe that somehow all suffering makes sense. Perhaps there are spirits in the Heaven dimension who choose to improve themselves... maybe they know that a certain type of suffering on Earth is just what they need to be a little closer to perfection. So maybe they are the spirits who return to Earth as babies in Third World countries who die slow painful deaths of malnutrition? This is not to say we should therefore be more accepting of this kind of suffering. The opposite holds true: it is better for OUR spirit to ease the suffering of dying children. In the broader scheme of things Gods will celebrate either outcome. If the child dies then the spirit of that angel has been improved but if the child survives then the spirit will have further opportunity to improve anyhow.

Does this make any sense? I have a toddler demading "more apple juice!!!" at the top of his lungs now LOL better go deal.

[Visitor3]

oK my understanding from reading prior posts is suffering equals learning and you'll reap the rewards in heaven if you go through suffering here on earth. The more you suffer the nicer heaven will be ? Doesn't sound like much of a master plan to me ? I'm sorry I just don't and can't accept that. Suffering brings me further and further away from GOD because someone who loves me, should surely want to protect me not watch me starve and die for example?

[Heaven]

oK my understanding from reading prior posts is suffering equals learning and you'll reap the rewards in heaven if you go through suffering here on earth. The more you suffer the nicer heaven will be ?

If you're talking from a christian perspective (which I think you are from other posts you've written) then no heaven won't be nicer for you if you suffer more.

I think suffering does equal learning for some people, from experiences I've heard others share and from my own. But I think it all depends on how you look at things aswell iykwim?

[Rouge]

I don't think suffering just relates to heaven (as not all faiths believe in heaven anyway). I think learning from the bad helps us to appreciate and see the good. Its like yin and yang. If everything was all peachy all the time and we never knew what it was to experience loss, abuse, pain etc And in turn perhaps not be so kind to others.

I am not very religious per-say, but I still believe that the worlds suffering does bring us closer to each other, and helps us to grow as people. Some people choose to learn and grow from their suffering, others choose to wallow in it and blame a deity, or their parents or their life for the choices they now make. This is still a choice.

I have had some pretty awful things happen to me and to those around me and I honestly would not change a day in my life. I like who I am and the principles and morals I have as a result of my life experience. Yes some days were pretty crappy, and sometimes I thought it wasn't "fair" but with my pain I have been able to grow, teach others how to grow and love and protect my family as best I can.

I really don't like the word suffering, as to me that is victim speak. I may have had some pretty bad times but if I am to look at my life now I certainly haven't "Suffered" as a result.

[Bathsheba]

PB: I see God as like a parent. Sometimes a parent has to allow a child to suffer so they can learn. As parents is it really our role to protect our children from all suffering? When my child desperately wants the lolly that another child has should I make sure he gets one every time? I refuse and my child will scream until they are blue in the face... but I know that if my child gets a lolly that the consequences won't be positive. I think we are like children sometimes.... we scream and scream wanting things that God in his wisdom knows is for something that is not right for us. Being loving is not being kind. A "kind" God would prevent us from making mistakes... would that really be in our best interests?

[Visitor3]

I know what you're saying in terms of discipline. But I'm talking about the big picture. A child vomiting thier own bile and dying because they are starved is not really the same as not giving your child a lolly, although I know what you're trying to say. But then in saying the "lolly" metaphor it negates free will doesn't it ?

I understand that sure you need to put in an effort in life to get what you want and you may not always get it which may mean perservering, but what I'm talking about is the role of children suffering which is vastly different.

[Bathsheba]

The role of a suffering child (starvation scenario) could be many things. Firstly, like i said in my first post: maybe the spirit of that child will enter Heaven in a more perfect state due to his suffering. I don't think he or she will find a "better Heaven" just that because the spirit of that child has experienced such extreme suffering that their spirit has graduated up a heirachy of perfection. In the Bible it states that there are angels and arch-angels (like Gabriel) who seems to have a higher place in Heaven. Maybe your standard angel wishes to "grow" spiritually.... so they decide to return to Earth specifically to suffer. Now this is just my own theory... maybe it just helps me deal with the helplessness of knowing that there are suffering children But even if we stop the suffering of a returned spirit then that's ok too. God will rejoice in that too. Secondly, the suffering of innocents really makes most of us feel really humble. How easy is it for mankind to feel proud of all that he has done??? Oh yes we are good aren't we/ how clever we are... we can put a man on the Moon!!!... we are sooo clever. Oh but wait... we can't ensure that no child suffers from lack of food. Hmmm.... so, are we really that great afterall? What a valuable lesson. That's my big picture perspective.

[Visitor3]

The role of a suffering child (starvation scenario) could be many things. Firstly, like i said in my first post: maybe the spirit of that child will enter Heaven in a more perfect state due to his suffering. I don't think he or she will find a "better Heaven" just that because the spirit of that child has experienced such extreme suffering that their spirit has graduated up a heirachy of perfection. In the Bible it states that there are angels and arch-angels (like Gabriel) who seems to have a higher place in Heaven. Maybe your standard angel wishes to "grow" spiritually.... so they decide to return to Earth specifically to suffer. Now this is just my own theory... maybe it just helps me deal with the helplessness of knowing that there are suffering children But even if we stop the suffering of a returned spirit then that's ok too. God will rejoice in that too.

I won't comment on this first part because it's clearly your own personal belief and you are perfectly entitled to that.

Secondly, the suffering of innocents really makes most of us feel really humble. How easy is it for mankind to feel proud of all that he has done??? Oh yes we are good aren't we/ how clever we are... we can put a man on the Moon!!!... we are sooo clever. Oh but wait... we can't ensure that no child suffers from lack of food. Hmmm.... so, are we really that great afterall? What a valuable lesson. That's my big picture perspective.

Completely agreed that I feel humbled to the ground when I think about such suffering (Which I choose not to focus on too much, otherwise I?d go mad !) Anywhooooo, I am also hubled when somebody does something nice for me for no particular reason. I?m not sure what you mean by "what a valuable lesson"? Is the lesson to feel humility by suffering of such children ? Or that we ensure that no child suffers from lack of food? Not really a lesson that has been learnt. Sorry I don?t mean to argue the point but the reason that have been given for children starving, you know, so that we might get a clue, learn a lesson, really just seem a cruel way to teach to me???

[Bathsheba]

As mankind develops all his skills in technology/medicine/science etc it could seem to many of us that we are becoming God-like in our power. I think it is a good lesson to be reminded that we are far from being God like. With power comes responsibility. Mankind seems happy to take the power but not to take responsibility How valuable is the death of a hungry child to remind us that we not God-like at all. Yes it is a bitter pill to swallow. It's not God that is being cruel... it is mankind that is being cruel. God cannot make us be good and take responsibility... that would go against free will.

[Visitor3]

Yeah, I really don't need or want the death of a hungry child to remind me that I am not God-like. I do agree that it is man being cruel that these children are in this position but I also think it is cruel of God to create the child knowing it would die in such a horrendous way. I think that sometimes people can justify these things as a lesson or a better place in heaven or whatever because it will never be thier child that they will be looking at and see thier soul escape their tiny little body and go cold. If it were thier child I think it would be a lot harder to justify, you know what I mean ?

I dunno, I appreciate your responses and at the end of the day, we all need to come to terms with why suffering happens in our own way. For me I just cannot in my heart of hearts ever accept that a child should die like that.

xx

[Phteven]

I don't think that any of us find it easy to accept that children or adults endure terrible suffering but the way I see it going to war with God about it is utterly futile but going to war against humanity might just achieve some small change.
We sponsor a child in Peru and also donate to Oxfam and Medicines Sans Frontiers. They're pretty small things to do but for me it helps to know that I am doing something - I can't stamp out poverty but I can help a few people less fortunate than me.

[Bathsheba]

Just personally I don't think I am "justifying" anything. It has been through my own personal suffering that I have developed the thoughts and ideas that I have written about in this post. I haven't come to these conclusions simply by observing the suffering of others. I know 100% that I am a better person for enduring the pain that I have. It's not for us to determine what challenges we "need or want". Our comfortable Western lifestyles have convinced us that not having a choice is outrageous. Well... I think it would serve us well to learn to get on and deal with things whether we like them or not... stop tantrumming like toddlers and screaming "IT'S NOT FAIR!!!" and just deal with it like most of humanity (especially in Developing countries). I'm not addressing this comment at you PB. I'm talking generally.

[Heaven]

You'd have to be pretty heartless not to care about the unnecessary suffering of people in this world. But unfortunately it happens and it is not God's fault. Having faith in God/Allah/the Universe, etc, often helps to give people hope and understand why suffering is part of our world. However, it is hard for some people to have faith in any God, and others choose not to. That's ok, we all have to do/believe what's right for us and what makes us feel good.

[Visitor3]

You'd have to be pretty heartless not to care about the unnecessary suffering of people in this world. But unfortunately it happens and it is not God's fault. Having faith in God/Allah/the Universe, etc, often helps to give people hope and understand why suffering is part of our world. However, it is hard for some people to have faith in any God, and others choose not to. That's ok, we all have to do/believe what's right for us and what makes us feel good.

Thanks Sarah Jane. I think we all "get on with it" otherwise nobody would get anywhere. I'm not waring with God I would just like to know why? I guess I'll find out one day?

Peace to all and have a great night xx