"I think sometimes ignorance is bliss"

[Trillian]

As much as it would bug you, considering what you know yourself of the system, there are some people who you just can't help kwim? They are fully happy with just letting whatever happen, happen, even if it is to their detriment. The thing with this kind of attitude though is that even if she does get every intervention under the sun as well as horrible treatment by the staff to boot, it would probably not be a traumatic birth for her as it would be for someone like you or I because she simply does not have an expectation of the respect and care she is rightly entitled to get as a birthing woman - she doesn't realise that the way she could possibly be treated and the possible birth outcome would be seen as traumatic if it were experienced by anyone else.

But that's not to say that taking a cavalier 'go with the flow' approach to birth is the same as this because I know many women to take that view and get exactly the births they want - it just means that they have done their research and educated themselves and know what to expect and know how they should be treated, but they just want to see where labour takes them kwim? Choosing to be completely ignorant about birth is setting yourself up to be at the full mercy of the system and if you can come through birth with that ideology with your abdomen intact then it would sheerly be luck and to escape with no trauma even more so and I guess having an ignorance is bliss philosophy would mean you are also blissfully ignorant of the trauma you have suffered which may be a good thing?

[MamaPan]

I know this feeling - my best friend is kinda similar - she thinks certain things and assumes thats the way it has to be.. she had a cs with her twins ('bc it is the only safe way to have twins') and is booked in for one with her next bubba ('bc you have to have it if you had a cs last time'). I have mentioned this site and also that there are other views and how happy i have been with both my labours/births (even with OB present at both) but she isnt open to other ideas... so I let her go with it, it is what she is happy with and that is the main thing i guess... it isnt easy to bite yor tongue though is it... (i find this with a few things in parenting too, you have to subtly state your POV and then leave them to it i think, bc it is always a personal choice)

[Lulu]

Maybe leave a copy on her desk. She might already be facing a barrage of info and putting the walls up - this way she could take it or leave it. Hopefully watch it in her own time?

Honestly, it's very irritating to me that people would hand over their bodies to someone else - no matter what the situation.

[MamaPan]

I actually disagree with pushing it further with her given that you know her as ' a lawyer at work' not as a social friend or relative... you brought it up and she wasnt interested... leaving copies on her desk or pushing it further isnt, in my opinion, appropriate in the workplace. that is just my opinion and i do keep my work and private lives relatively seperate..(and i dont know how close you are to her rory but it didnt sound like she really wanted to discuss it all with you from what you wrote)

[Jellyfish]

She might be one of those people who work better being thrown in the deep end with little to no information?

I know I did not want to know anything about birth, I just wanted to let it happen. I didn't go to antenatal classes, I didn't do any research... and I'm really happy that I didn't. I think had I known more I would have wound myself up into a panic. I'm an over-thinker and for this, I just wanted to shut my brain off. If anyone started broaching the subject, I began the "lalalalala I'm not listening" routine.

I had a spontaneous vaginal birth (no stitches, a few puffs of gas)... some would say that it must have been luck and they are probably partially right but I think some of it is the fact that this was the way that worked best for me. Everyone who knows me, knows I'm a think on my feet type of person rather than one who likes to plan ahead because it just stresses me out and sends me into a spiral of anxiety.

I wouldn't say I was completely uninformed, I knew the basics but I do think there are some people who can't handle having heaps of information floating through their heads. They just want to let it be and roll with the moment.

[sunshine_sieben]

I haven't read all the responses but I wanted to share my mum's side of things.
She was a little taken a back when she realised how much research I was doing on birth and told me that I was better off not reading anything. i did not understand her attitude until she explained. She is very pro-natural-birth. She was a homebirth herself and both her children were natural, no pain relief, although my brother was induced. she has the attitude that birth is normal and intervention is rarely needed. However, when she was pregnant for the first time, people started giving advice and she started reading about birth. and the picture being painted was grim. That birth was scary, painful and dangerous and that intervention is something yolu shouldn't do without. That's when she decided that she didn't want to hear/read anymore and started saying to people that "ignorance is bliss", just to shut them up. The system back then in germany wasn't as hositle as it seems to be in Australia atm, so she got the natural births that she believed were possible. When I explained tro her how hostile the system is here, she understood why I did so much research.

So I guess my point is that if the alternative to ignorance is to let people freak you out about the pain and danger of birthing, then yes, ignorance is bliss. In a perfect world, where your caretaker is the most knowledgeable and trustworthy and really only has YOUR best interest at heart, then you don't need to educate yourself.
Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world...

Sasa

[Bathsheba]

I haven't read all the posts so sorry if I am just repeating. Rory I'm all for tailoring the approach according to the person. I don't really think there is a stock standard response to this... a lot depends on her personality. I generally reserve advice until I know someone enough to predict their reaction somewhat. I know how frustrating it can be when you have experience in an area of life and you see people who don't have much headed in a risky direction. It's your call ultimately (using your intuition) how far to go. I believe that sometimes things are best left alone despite the apparent risk because the person involved just isn't receptive and therefore will probably only learn through experience, as hard as that might be to watch. You can try changing tack... instead of persuing her you can play a bit of a mind game and boycott the whole topic for a while... don't talk about the whole subject at all... see if she creeps back with her feelers out. This often works, kinda reverse psychology. Don't know if you're up for that though LOL I know you are pretty straight down the line which is why i like you!

Is there any part of life that if you suggested to her that "ignorance is bliss" she would freak out? Would she feel the same way about eating something that might or might not harm her baby? "Oh we went out for lunch the other day and I ordered a salad... it was out on display at room temperature and could have been a risk for listeria... I don't know... oh well... ignorance is bliss"? If you wanted to push the issue you could use that example to prove that she does actually care about optimizing the chances of a safe and healthy birth for her baby But I suspect that's probably not the way to go if you want to preserve the friendship. In some ways people resent you more if you are right than if you didn't say anything at all.

Hmmm... follow you gut matey. Wish her well. She is responsible for herself and her baby. Maybe tell her to Google "BellyBelly"

[HollyC]

I guess it is just frustrating when someone brushes off something that is important to us personally.

To reiterate what many people have said.... ignorance is bliss doesn't necessarily mean that this woman is uninformed or will make poor decisions. Sometimes there are just aspects of birth that we don't feel we want to know about.

My sister has the attitude of just doing whatever her doctor says and thinks that I'm crazy for doing my own research or questioning him (we have the same doctor). She is perfectly fine with this approach and thinks that birth is an unpleasant but necessary experience if you want a baby. I don't agree with this, but is she wrong? No, she isn't. It is her opinion and she is entitled to it. Now if I could just stop her trying to force her opinion on me!

One thing that no one has mentioned.... some people feel they need a doctor to tell them what to do. They just want to put their trust in someone else, someone who they believe knows all the answers. To take this responsibility on themselves is just too scary. I certainly don't agree with this, but it is the way some people feel.

[helle]

Personally, I agree with her. I'm not having a birth plan for the pure fact that I know alot of people who have had one, it's gone wrong, and for that they feel very let down about their birth. Actually I tell a lie. My birth plan is to get my baby out and to get him out alive. Maybe she doesn't want to watch the DVD because she doesn't want to know what things are looking like down there as everything happens - often that can freak people out a bit, not just the men


And, I'm probably going to be slammed here for saying this, but there may be reasons you don't know about as to why she is having a birth led by her Dr, (if it wasn't for a c/s my mum had to have my brother would have died, but this isn't something she advertises IYKWIM) or her Dr may even be more open minded than you think. They're not all out to cut you open and rip you the shreads. And IMO if you're pressuring her to take your approach to birth, I think that's just as bad as pressure from a Dr or Ob.

I'm not trying to say this to get up anyone -although I know it will- but unless you created the bump, I don't think anyone else has the right to tell you how to birth or dictate your choice you make regarding your care.

[Trillian]

Teagz, I fully understand what you are saying and it's true - no one else does have the right to tell you what to do or dictate your choice, but you're not being completely ignorant about how you want to birth are you? You've decided that you want to do whatever it takes to get your babe out alive and I"m sure you know what your options are for that dont you? But to be completely ignorant isn't good at all - you cannot make the best decision for your health or the health of your baby if you do not know what choices you have to begin with - or that if you knew that you could say no to something or that you don't need a forceps/vacuum birth if only you could have just a little more time. It is no ones best interests to have complete blind faith in the medical system these days for anything, not just birth.

[helle]

Teagz, I fully understand what you are saying and it's true - no one else does have the right to tell you what to do or dictate your choice, but you're not being completely ignorant about how you want to birth are you? You've decided that you want to do whatever it takes to get your babe out alive and I"m sure you know what your options are for that dont you? But to be completely ignorant isn't good at all - you cannot make the best decision for your health or the health of your baby if you do not know what choices you have to begin with - or that if you knew that you could say no to something or that you don't need a forceps/vacuum birth if only you could have just a little more time. It is no ones best interests to have complete blind faith in the medical system these days for anything, not just birth.

Agreed.

And on a different note... where can I get a copy of this DVD? I wouldn't mind having a squiz

[BellyBelly]

I know this feeling REALLY well lol As some of our longest serving mods will know, as I was doing my Birth Attendant/Doula course BB really changed and we had alot of resistance - people kicked up a stink, left, hated what BB had become. But it's now been 6.5 years and look how far we've come. BB members attending rallies at parliament, loads using doulas, more having homebirths - it's incredible. BB has become a powerhouse of informed and educated women, and I have learnt that you need to take it one day at a time, slowly slowly, and change does come. As more and more find out this info, the word spreads faster. The best thing you can do is to get involved as much as you can, keep positive and you will make massive change in people's lives and it's the blooming best feeling in the world for me

The Business of Being Born DVD

[Glamourcide]

I kind of agree with what's been said in some of the last posts... I'm as passionate as the next person about being educated and informed and choosing your own path, but I try not to push it with people who aren't interested. I make a few hints about being informed and if they ask, I'm happy to help. If they know I'm here to offer advice and choose not to take it, then I wish them well and leave it alone. Sure, it might bug me to see everybody I know saying, 'Oh I'm gonna get an epidural as soon as possible and ramp up the pain relief' or 'I want to be induced at 38 weeks, I'm soooo sick of being pregnant already' or 'I'm going to ask for a c-sec because I'm scared of the pain of being in labour' etc... but all I can do is say, 'I'd be glad to point you in the direction of some information that might help you with those decisions and help you weigh up the risks of various choices' and let them come to me if they feel they want to be educated.

I'm another person who kind of thinks ignorance *is* bliss - I read up on what my options were, but I didn't want to watch birthing videos or any of that kind of business. Watching videos wasn't going to help prepare me for my individual situation, I preferred just to say to myself, 'Yes, it's gonna hurt like hell but it doesn't stop women going back for more babies so it can't be all that bad - if everyone else can do it, you certainly can!' and left it at that. After seeing birthing videos after giving birth, I'm glad I didn't do it before - it was awful. Gory. Uncomfortable to watch. I'm so glad I didn't have those pictures in my head while I was labouring!

[Lulu]

I heard so many horror stories I wanted to be the one to avoid it, not stick my head in the sand.

I agree with you somewhat Glamour - we we shown a birth video at ante natal classes and it was awful - forceps, the baby seemed pulled out quite violently and I cried all the way home from the class.
I don't know why they couldn't have shown something more peaceful and positive....

[Roryrory]

all I can do is say, 'I'd be glad to point you in the direction of some information that might help you with those decisions and help you weigh up the risks of various choices' and let them come to me if they feel they want to be educated.

Glamour I think that is the approach I am going to take (I tend not to be a pushy person so I think I have fallen into that by default).

her Dr may even be more open minded than you think. They're not all out to cut you open and rip you the shreads.

Teagz, I think my OB was one of these. Like I said in my OP I actually think my OB did pretty well given his profession's usual stance on birthing (I am thinking about sending him a belated thankyou card, actually!)

unless you created the bump, I don't think anyone else has the right to tell you how to birth or dictate your choice you make regarding your care.

I agree with this too, and I think that is what Kelly is getting at when she said she knows the feeling. It can be hard to stand by and watch women "choosing" a medicalised (or potentially medicalised) birth when in reality they are following the dictates of insurance companies.

Kelly I have been a member of the BB community for (I think) nearly 4 years now and I am so glad it is the way it is

[Inanna]

Rory like Kelly I too know this feeling well. It is frustrating & a little heartbreaking to me when I see a Woman embarking on the journey of birth and not making informed choice. Independent investigation of the truth is imperative to good decision making.

I see women investigate a mortgage with more time investment than I do their investment in bringing their child into the world. That disturbs me deeply...

Becoming a Mother begins at conception & how a baby is birthed and how the Mother feels, responds, interacts and makes decisions around this huge event set the scene for how she parents.

That is one of the big reasons I am all for informed decision making.

Teagz I understand that birthing a baby after the loss of a baby leads us to different decisions. However, I believe your decision are informed.

I think from what Rory has said that this person is handing over her body and saying La la la I don't wanna know! That to me is a recipe for difficulty.

I would leave the dvd with a card and say: "I wish someone had shown me this when I was preparing for my first birth"...