Is your partner as well informed as you?

[Fleur]

I think men are wired differently to women and if you ask a man to research which is the best oil for their motorbikes they'll have the patience to read it. But ask them to research the hormonal responses in natural labour etc - you may as well put the fake open eye glasses on them because I'll tell ya their brains have already gone to sleep.

Yet, Human Bean's comment hit a chord with me. DP and I didn't write OUR birth plan TOGETHER. I wrote MY birth plan and presented him with a copy.

Same here. I tried to get him involved... I asked him, how do you feel about this, that, etc... he just wasn't interested. He figured I knew what i wanted...kind of like, it was my birth experience, and he was happy for me to do it how I wanted.
In the end I sat him down one day - I think I was about 36 or 37 weeks - and went through all of the articles I had read & printed & notes I had made. But it really felt like I was delivering a lecture or a speech - Here Is My Birth Plan - Instructions To Follow! He just sat & listened & gave very little input. TBH I think he just listened as a favour to hormonal me

And yes, I do think that if things had gone pear shaped, there's every chance he would have sided with the Drs. That's why I wanted him involved, and reading - so that I could be confident his opinions were HIS, not that of our caregivers.

I had a close friend come in with me, she was more invoved & interested than him ...definitely a place for Doulas, I think!

I should add - I don't hold it against him (now, lol). I just think it's one of those things where men & women are wired differently. I have no doubt he loves me, was excited about the birth & happy for me to do what I felt best and was very concerned about my health & wellbeing. But he's not pregnant, he's not giving birth, and it just doesn't grab him the same...

[AliB]

Ok here's another random thought leading on from Jasp's post.

What if your DP does all the reading, research and talking to people.... and comes to conclusions about his birth prefences which are vastly (or somewhat) different to yours.

For example, he decides that his reading indicates that the risk of going more than 41weeks post dates are more than any risks associated with induction or c/section and that he will not support waiting.

Or what if he reads 10 stories about babies who've had bad outcomes after experiencing foetal distress and therefore he determines that a rapid c/s is far more important to him than waiting or asking more questions about the reliability of the monitoring trace.

Would we then say 'bad luck - my body, my choice?'. Is that really fair?

[Fleur]

Ok here's another random thought leading on from Jasp's post.

What if your DP does all the reading, research and talking to people.... and comes to conclusions about his birth prefences which are vastly (or somewhat) different to yours.

For example, he decides that his reading indicates that the risk of going more than 41weeks post dates are less than any risks associated with induction or c/section and that he will not support waiting.

Or what if he reads 10 stories about babies who've had bad outcomes after experiencing foetal distress and therefore he determines that a rapid c/s is far more important to him than waiting or asking more questions about the reliability of the monitoring trace.

Would we then say 'bad luck - my body, my choice?'. Is that really fair?

oooh, interesting question, AliB!

In my case, it didn't apply - I don't know what I would have done. I wonder if this situation arises often?

[Mummato2]

Ok here's another random thought leading on from Jasp's post.

What if your DP does all the reading, research and talking to people.... and comes to conclusions about his birth prefences which are vastly (or somewhat) different to yours.

For example, he decides that his reading indicates that the risk of going more than 41weeks post dates are more than any risks associated with induction or c/section and that he will not support waiting.

Or what if he reads 10 stories about babies who've had bad outcomes after experiencing foetal distress and therefore he determines that a rapid c/s is far more important to him than waiting or asking more questions about the reliability of the monitoring trace.

Would we then say 'bad luck - my body, my choice?'. Is that really fair?

Great question!

I think that ultimately it's YOUR body and YOUR birth experience. I do think that's it's important for husbands to feel ok with what's happening, but they aren't the ones that experience the emotional aftermath if something didn't go well and you weren't given the opportunity to say how it should have happened......

[Inanna]

I haven't read all of the responses but I am replying largely to Star...

I think that it's interesting how birth has evolved to the inclusion of partners... A fairly volatile comment I know!

Birth largely was always Woman's business... When a Woman's Man was present - he was largely there to share his love energetically - but to keep to just that. Emotive support...

Now, many Women say: "I just want my partner there"... Which is fine for individuals but I do question the wisdom of this decision when there is no other advocate for a Woman.

Birthing Women need a Woman known to them who is well versed in what this particular Woman's ethos is & is also knowledgeable about birth and the process of Birthing... Actually they don't just need it - it's crucial to a positive birth outcome.

Now individually things can be different. A very empowered Woman who is assertive and knowledgeable may get her needs met even if her Man crumbles and begs her to have an epidural or a c/section... But many many wouldn't. This I personally believe doesn't serve a Birthing Woman.

My exhusband didn't have much of a clue - he knew & trusted my knowledge and trust in my body. He also knew if he uttered even a hint of intervention then his life wouldn't be worth living... It probably helped that he certainly isn't the worlds most empathic man - so he can easily disengage from anothers pain!

Many men cannot disengage from seeing their serene well groomed partner strip down, growl, screech, moan, sway and grunt with the effort and intensity of labour... It's a different experience... I liken it a bit to the time I was called into a footy change room - seeing all of these sweaty men with their bits dangling out slapping backs and talking raucously! It was a different world that I didn't understand. So, a man in this woman's land find's it a bit like that... That coupled with pain. Now, in our society pain is something to be taken away. Emotional pain, spiritual pain and physical pain. We have a whole bunch of people that earn their living that way - by removing pain. So he sees this woman he loves in a lot of pain & he wants to take it away...

Out goes all the plans because he can see a way to save you...

Now, not all men will feel this way - some men will be very informed & will get it. But at the end of the day many just want you the Woman to feel better - God bless their cotton socks...

I can see why it can change the energy of birth to have a man there. I also know that I will be shouted at for that! But I have seen it happen. I don't believe that a Man can be everything for me or for any woman. We need different things from our Men than we do from our Women!
Men fix - Women work through. Birth is about working through the pain for the beauty of the outcome. Men often (certainly not always) want to take it away for you.

This too comes down to obstetricians. I remember saying to a Male obstetrician who is a friend - I didn't wnat him in my Birthing room - for all of my reasons above. I want Woman Energy as I birth & I didn't want that in my space... I said to him after the birth - "there was a while there that I didn't know if I could do it"... He said. "I could have helped you with that"...

But I didn't want help - at least not that sort. I wanted strength and power that I get Energetically with Women who are in tune with other Women & the sacredness of Birth!

So, I dom't think it says anything about ones relationship to not have a partner at your birth. I think it says much about your need for just the right environment to facilitate the best and most sacred experience for you...

[onthefly]

In spirit, DH and I were on the same page from the start. I probably did more research than him and a lot of what he knew I told him, but he also did his own reading.

I think it is crucial that your support person is on the same page. In the throes of labour you will go along with pretty much anything - you need someone there to support you, remind you of your preferences, make other suggestions. DH and our doula did this and it was very helpful. DH questioned the midwives and stood up to the doc on one point. I feel really proud of him for that. I don't know whether I could have done it.

But that was his job - looking out for us and his ideas on how to best do that gelled with mine and so that worked.

I don't know that partners are always the best support people during births. They are often afraid - that fear goes very deep and seeing their partners in pain, hearing the merest suggestion of risk and they will often quickly make decisions to try and fix that, forgetting the birth plan entirely. It's completely understandable and I don't mean to be critical, but it's not helpful to a labouring mother.
ETA - never mind, just read Innana's post

[Rouge]

I for one am very proud of my husbands involvement in my births. And with DS' birth especially he was wonderful. He was very informed and he knows more than most women I know funnily enough. He and I have a very strong bond though, and we share absolutely everything so for us it was just an extension of that. Had he not wanted to understand or be involved I honestly wouldn't have made him. I think it's just as wrong to force a dad to be there for you when they don't want to be and it could impact negatively on the birth as keeping them away when they actually want to be involved.

He read books, we did classes together. We learnt about Lotus birth, homebirth, active birth and even the dark sides to our birthing history together. I feel sorry for DD when it's her turn LOL I daresay he'll have a bit to say

[Rouge]

I for one am very proud of my husbands involvement in my births. And with DS' birth especially he was wonderful. He was very informed and he knows more than most women I know funnily enough. He and I have a very strong bond though, and we share absolutely everything so for us it was just an extension of that. Had he not wanted to understand or be involved I honestly wouldn't have made him. I think it's just as wrong to force a dad to be there for you when they don't want to be and it could impact negatively on the birth as keeping them away when they actually want to be involved.

He read books, we did classes together. We learnt about Lotus birth, homebirth, active birth and even the dark sides to our birthing history together. I feel sorry for DD when it's her turn LOL I daresay he'll have a bit to say

[Sagres]

No, but I didn't find it a problem. I discussed with him many times what my preferences were but I didn't go into massive detail about how and why I had come to those preferences. That was enough, we were both on the same page. I guess I am pretty lucky in that he is pretty cluey so even if I didn't got into tonnes of detail he is pretty good at filling in the blanks and understanding where I or other points of view are coming from without having it spelled out IYKWIM.

But really when it came to the crunch I don't think it mattered all that much. I made decisions with my ob and my midwife which I was 100% comfortable with (even though some varied from my preferences) and I was very capable of saying what I wanted and negotiating how things went. So DHs 'voice' wasn't really called upon. Not to say he wasn't involved, her certainly was (he was manning a leg when I started pushing!), but he was not required as an advocate.

[fourthontheway]

My partner read Active Birth, and went to Bradley method classes with me. We planned a homebirth but transferred, he wasn't as well versed on our tf plan as he should have been .... there were short sharp words in the months afterwards and he is VERY well prepared this time should the need to tf arise.

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

Great question Ali! I hope, at least for DH and I, that if we were to get into that situation, we would both be willing to hear out each side, and the reasons for it. I wouldn't want it to come down to 'My Body My Choice' ultimatum, especially between husband and wife, so I have hopes that it could be talked through

Great point as well Inanna! I guess my main reason for wanting DH there when the time comes is more for emotional bonding purposes - both in our relationship, as well as his relationship with our new bub. I do understand what you're saying about female energy, and working through as opposed to 'fixing', so I would need to make absolutely sure DH understands my innate determination to work through the pain and have an empowering birth experience.

[Persephone1]

Ugh, good thread, and timely for me. I'm reading lots about birth, but the books are not being touched by my DH. I did however have some more success with some pamphlets which my Mum got me from her local health service - short, concise and easy to read. DH has managed to read those, but nothing else.

We're going to be doing the hospital antenatal classes and Rhea Dempsey's Birth Wisdom class. I'm hoping this will be enough for DH to get the picture. I do however have some nerves about how the birth will go, when it comes to the crunch - DH has looked over my shoulder at my draft Birth Plan and said "do you really think they'll let you do that?" - which makes me think that I'm going to have to be the strong one. My DH also thinks that he'll be very supportive and new-age about the birth experience, but in reality may just p*ss me off and make me want him to leave - his version of "support" will be telling me what to do and talking to me when I want him to shut-up.

So, my answer to all this, besides hoping that DH will absorb SOMETHING from the birth classes, is to hire a Doula. And my Doula has already spoken to me about being prepared for DH to be the "weak link" in the room (no offence to my DH), so she knows the score. I pay my Doula to do her job - which includes being objective, whereas my DH can only be expected to be my DH - a lovely, loving, caring, intelligent man, who may not be a great support person during the birth.

Oh and in case there were any doubts about my DH's wonderful "supportive" attitude: I told him the other day that I needed to start reading about breastfeeding. His response - "Why? Breastfeeding is natural, what is there to read about?"

[Fleur]

I pay my Doula to do her job - which includes being objective, whereas my DH can only be expected to be my DH - a lovely, loving, caring, intelligent man, who may not be a great support person during the birth.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there - some of these men make wonderful husbands and partners, just not great Doulas!

[SammyRo]

DH didn't read much, but was very happy to listen when I explained why I didn't want intervention, epidurals, etc. He was very supportive before hand. We did midwifery group pracitce with DD, and he attended all of my appointments, and so had taken part in many conversations with our lovely mw about my birth intentions, so I felt confident that we were all on the same page.

When it came to it, I wouldn't have got through it without DH - apparently, I didn't let him get so far as the toilet once we were in hospital. DH was advocating me to stay at home longer, it was me that wanted to get into hospital asap once the contractions really got going.

DD was persistent posterior, and so the birth was long and difficult, with a 2.5 hour pushing stage. At no point did DH or the MW offer me any pain relief, other than the gas (which the mw didn't actually turn on I found out later - she just made me use it to control my breathing!), and when I asked the MW if she coul just pull the baby out, she calmly told me that by the time we had transferred to L&D from the birth centre, gound a doctor and got set up for forceps, I would have given birth anyway. Maybe if I had gone a different mode of care, and so got any random mw on shift at the time, things might have been different, and DH might have acted differently. So maybe, thats where some women might need a doula or an IM.

This time around, I've borrowed Juju Sudin's book, and while I know DH won't read it all, he has said that he will read the parts with actual strategies if I tag them for him.

[slyder]

Imagine the outrage if some of you mob came across a mens forum where we made the same blanket stereotypes about women being useless with anything practical, mainly suited to kitchen duties blah blah blah.

I'm not at all annoyed, don't getme wrong, but by christ there are some patronising comments in these types of threads.

We're not all disengaged and stupid. I think most relationships have one person who is the seeker of information, and one that goes with the flow. Sometimes, both people are the same. In any event there are stacks of blokes who know as much, or more, than their partners on this general subject.

PS. My relationship is exactly the same as Rouge's.

[slyder]

Ok here's another random thought leading on from Jasp's post.

What if your DP does all the reading, research and talking to people.... and comes to conclusions about his birth prefences which are vastly (or somewhat) different to yours.

For example, he decides that his reading indicates that the risk of going more than 41weeks post dates are more than any risks associated with induction or c/section and that he will not support waiting.

Or what if he reads 10 stories about babies who've had bad outcomes after experiencing foetal distress and therefore he determines that a rapid c/s is far more important to him than waiting or asking more questions about the reliability of the monitoring trace.

Would we then say 'bad luck - my body, my choice?'. Is that really fair?

No, I don't think it's fair at all. For instance if, in our case, DW wanted to have a home, water birth, with only a M/W in attendance, I would be extremely p-ed off and it would be a huge issue.

Great question, good work.

I think that ultimately it's YOUR body and YOUR birth experience. I do think that's it's important for husbands to feel ok with what's happening, but they aren't the ones that experience the emotional aftermath if something didn't go well and you weren't given the opportunity to say how it should have happened......

This type of thing is what perpetuates this attitude about blokes being the dopey ones sitting on the sidelines telling the woman to breathe etc. If you want to make it a one way street, I guess you shouldn't be surprised when the bloke isn't all that involved.

[onthefly]

Fair point Slyder. I think some partners make excellent birth partners, but others really don't - but it's a personality thing, I don't think it's because they're men.

Setting up some sort of adversarial relationship between mother and father over birth perferences is definately not a good way to go - they're both involved and both have to feel ok about it.

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

Imagine the outrage if some of you mob came across a mens forum where we made the same blanket stereotypes about women being useless with anything practical, mainly suited to kitchen duties blah blah blah.

I'm not at all annoyed, don't getme wrong, but by christ there are some patronising comments in these types of threads.

We're not all disengaged and stupid. I think most relationships have one person who is the seeker of information, and one that goes with the flow. Sometimes, both people are the same. In any event there are stacks of blokes who know as much, or more, than their partners on this general subject.

PS. My relationship is exactly the same as Rouge's.

I didn't say all men were disengaged and stupid Slyder, I asked if they were as informed as the partners they are supporting, and whether some women felt let down because their partners didn't research. I didnt specifically mean men, I meant PARTNERS, or support persons.

I also don't think there have been many - if any - patronizing comments made in this thread, as generally people have been posting about their personal experiences.

I'm truly sorry if you have found this thread patronizing or offensive, but to come into a peaceful and intelligent discussion with guns blazing is not really the way to react, is it?

For my part, I started this thread after helping my sister write her birth plan, and her telling me that she knew she couldn't rely on her DH to support her, which she felt was because he refused to do ANY reading or listen to her thoughts on the matter. She felt unsupported for her last birth, so for this birth she has chosen her DH if he decides to come, myself, and a trainee midwife.