Passive Aggression... Why?

[Jennifer13]

Christy, you're right. It's all about THEM, everything. So if you did something, your Mum thinks it was directed at her, nothing to do with what might or might not have worked for you and your family. And I'm guessing she's only getting worse as things progress...

When I think about it, the people I know who use PA are very ego-centric. Very fragile in their self-esteem, but it's that need to be at the centre. They take everything personally, hence the ability to hang onto things. No empathy exercised, not even to those they 'love'.

[maz]

all round please...and osmeone crack open a bottle cause so much of what is being discussed by you all can so be related to parts of my screwed up family and upbringing.

Know what I hate the most.....that the PA people in my family have done nothing wrong...everyone else is to blame for their words and actions.

this thread and another started yesterday have opened some deep wound's with me....there not ones I talk about freely....only a selected few know and its getting harder to deal with

I am over BULLIES!!!!! PAP are just that for me

again lovely ladies.

[Mrs Jak]

Hmmm, food for thought! Making me wonder if have PA tendencies or not?

Like you say, I'm thinking we probably all exhibit PA behaviour at sometime in our lives.

I can't say I've noticed it from anyone around me, but the topic has me thinking and if someone was doing it to me I probably wouldn't notice so much, as I have trouble understanding things unless they are completly direct and honest.

I do have people in my life who can't handle honesty, directness and people having opinions different to theirs without being offended, which in turn inhibits my responses to them and I then struggle to have much to say to them. Maybe if I watch their behaviour I might pick up on some PA behaviour?

I usually find 'nasty' or 'evil' people are just highly insecure and being defensive. I guess they make themselves feel better by trying to bring people down to their insecure level?

[Inanna]

I was speaking on the phone just now with a friend who is a psychologist... She is always interesing to bump things off. Like the article that Kel posted she also mentioned that usually people parented dysfunctionally usually are exposed to PA & develop these tendencies to a greater or lesser extent. That simply it comes from an inability to be safe expressing what are perceived to be negative emotions.

I then did a google. This is what our friend Wiki says:

e book Living with the Passive-Aggressive Man lists 11 responses that may help identify passive-aggressive behavior. [2]
Ambiguity or speaking cryptically: a means of engendering a feeling of insecurity in others
Chronically being late and forgetting things: another way to exert control or to punish.
Fear of competition
Fear of dependency
Fear of intimacy as a means to act out anger: The passive aggressive often cannot trust. Because of this, they guard themselves against becoming intimately attached to someone.
Making chaotic situations
Making excuses for non-performance in work teams
Obstructionism
Sulking
Victimization response: instead of recognizing one's own weaknesses, tendency to blame others for own failures.
A passive-aggressive person may not have all of these behaviors, and may have other non-passive-aggressive traits.
[edit]

So, that just about covers most of what we have all discussed in here. I guess I am wary of naming someone a label when perhaps they are not always that way... As someone earlier said in a bad moment we can all react in a PA way or conversely perceive someone else that way...

Astrid what happened to you with regard to the pizza was chilling to me. Thankyou for sharing it & I am sorry you had to live that experience.

Jennifer you MIL is a piece of work the poor love... It really sounds unbearable to deal with. It's unbelieveable that she chose Lucy's birthday to inform you of her name change... Far out.

Like Christy I have been accused all of my life of being tactless, outspoken and loud... My FIL especially finds my outspokenness an outrage. Mostly because in his family if you want something or believe something that is contrary to popular opinion you do it secretively or drop lots of suggestions...

I think Christy I am guilty of speaking in a way you see as being PA... I often say: "I hear that's how you see it.. This is how I see it... So we see it quite differently"... etc etc. For me I thought that was just acknowledging a difference and sharing that. So I will have to rethink on that & examine it closer... I really had no idea that's how it might be perceived...

The FOTY & I would have convos that went like this: Me: "have you got any ideas about what to do on the weekend"... HIM: I dom't mind what we do... ME: "I hear you don't mind but have you got any thoughts or ideas on what we could do"? HIM: " I am happy with whatever you want to do"... ME: "okay let's go to the beach for a picnic"... HIM: "I think it's going to rain"... ME: "Oh well it'll still be fun lets take the chance: (we go, it rains, we get wet) HIM: "I told you it was a bad idea'...

To me that's PA... To him it was being easy going... It's really interesting how we all perceive things differently...

My friend Alison reminded me of Byron Katie with regard to this... How that which bugs the heck out of us in others is something in ourselves. That to me is a big leveller - as I am certain that I am unconscious of times when I have used PA even though I try very hard to keep conscious... YK?

[Fleur]

but I do remember one incident where I really thought "wow, there is something not quite right in that behaviour". It was only something simple and something if I did make a fuss over, that people would tell me to get over it, I can look back on it now and see it for the power play it was. It was just over pizza, I am a fussy one, no anchovies, olives. So we always got 2 pizzas, one I could eat and the other olives on. I always noticed the SF would not touch the olive pizza till the other was finished. One night I pulled him up on it, he just looked at me with this evil glint, said nothing and reached for the last piece. Something about it really made my stomach sink and some of the respect I had for him was destroyed. Yes, it was just pizza, but I see know that he applied that to a lot of things he did to me and my mother.

Ok, that's why I came back to add to my post - I think there are different types of PA behaviour & yes, sometimes it is evil.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

This has been an interesting read! There has been some interesting behaviour from my mother that I've noticed here too. It is interesting that I've picked some of it up unconsiously too: will have to try to stop that. I am very independant and do fear others getting close or even being similar to me, let alone actively compared to me. I put this down to people just letting me down and being compared negatively to my sister as a child rather than being PA.

My Mum had a name change too. She is both Grandma and Nanna now. She was Grandma only because Dad's grandma was, so she felt that because they had the same last name, her being Nanna would sound odd. (FWIW, I hate "Grandma Molly" over "Grandma Jones": first names to grandparents! NO! Old people are last name people, for politeness.) So I said OK, Grandma Brown was out. Her childhood nickname was Ninnie and her little brother still calls her that, so I suggested Nanna Ninnie. She was so pleased about this that she was in a good mood for the next week!

The big one of Mum's that I remember was her weeping to me how awful her children are, how she hates her life, her husband, the house, the area... just not appropriate to me rather than PA, I would have said. Happened a lot when I was in my late teens.

Some of the examples given here have just chilled me. Doing something that would appear insignificant to display their "power" and "domination" over others... that's really scary. I would hope I don't go that far!

[thepixie]

I don't know what to say... Maz, I'm with you, this is bringing up too much stuff which is way too close to the bone for me to comment usefully at the moment.....
but keep talking girls, it's interesting stuff

[Arcadia]

this thread is making me sad

PA is so insidious and often happens when people are trying to get a handle of their emotions, but they can't, so they burst out in inappropriate ways.

The amount of PA in my DH's extended family is insane. My family are more the 'have it out' kinda family. Interestingly, ours is the one seen as more disfunctional.

[butterfly_warrior]

Interesting thread... I come from a family where disagreements are vocal, loud and over quickly. Grudges are not held, in general. I know DH's family are very different and definitely decidedly PA. I've never been able to put a name to it until reading this thread. PA was not something I recognised as I'd never really been exposed to it.

But another side of things. I've also realised why I clash so badly with the deputy principal at work. It seems that the way to succeed and get things to happen in the school I work at is to be completely passive aggressive. It's not me, I'm not good at it and I'm far too blunt (when I'm not running as fast as I can to avoid conflict). It seems sad to realise that if I want to get anywhere in that place that I'm going to have to become passive aggressive...

BW

[Trillian]

Victimization response: instead of recognizing one's own weaknesses, tendency to blame others for own failures.

That sums up my Dad to a T. Dad is the type of person who would go great guns at a job for a while, then all of a sudden he would come home whinging about this person and that person and the boss was a jerk etc, then he would quit, saying he couldn't work with people like that. Mum later told me that she could always tell when he was about to throw in another job because the whinging would start. One of my brothers is exactly the same, but he is a very vocal person when it comes to arguments, so I guess he isn't typically PA. It makes me wonder just how bad Dad was though when he and Mum were married, but we would have been too little to notice much I suppose.

And BIL's wife is definitely PA. She organises things to be on a date when she knows that we definitely can't go, then complains about us not being able to be there. With their DS2's baptism, they held it in Sydney, knowing that DH and I, MIL and FIL and SIL and her DH couldn't go because we are all on farms and we can't all go away otherwise there is no one to feed animals/livestock etc. Thing is, their marriage isn't the best and she waits till they fight to bring it up, even when the entire situation was of her design in the first place! She throws it in his face about how unsupportive we are of her because we don't go to xyz event but her family are supportive because they are always there for her MIL, SIL and I can see right through her now so we just let it roll off our backs.

[Ginger]

my MIL is the absolute queen of PA. Always has been. Thinks everything is about her and tries to control and manipulate situations. The problem is, i tend to act PA back to her, purely because i just don't know how else to deal with her. My question is, what strategies can you use to deal with someone like this? in a perfect world i would completely cut her out of my life. we keep contact with her minimal...but i have to admit this is one of the things that makes me dread 'occasions' like xmas. sad huh?

[Trillian]

LOL G, in the dictionary under the definition for PA, there should be a picture of your MIL. She is the queen of it well and truly!

[Inanna]

I think calling it...

What I say is: "Are you having a go at me'? "I hear you say it doesn't matter what colour the cake is but I am wondering what colour you would like it to be"? Try & ask questions that have a one word answer...

Also, try only asking the questions when others are present... This way you cannot be painted/misrepresented...

I used to say: "I hear you see it like abc - I see it like xyz - so we are seeing it quite differently...

However, I am rethinking this and how I feel about it...

I am sure others will have some ideas

[Ginger]

trill i've gotta spread the love..but I KNOW!!!!

i really should start my own thread about my MIL and how to deal with her. I hate that i do it back to her, but i honestly cannot reason with her like a reasonable person.

inanna- i have tried calling her out several times, but then she will have a huff and sit in her car in my driveway and refuse to come in (just one example) until i go out and apologise to her- so i look like the total biatch to everyone if i refuse to do it. she turns it around on me and says stuff like 'oohh i wish i was as smart and educated as you are' (said in very sarcastic poor me kinda tone). She's a real piece of work.

[Toomanytoomany]

People usually use passive aggression to a) avoid the consequences of conflict while still saying what they want to say; or b) to get feedback that reassures them that they matter.

(a) is pretty straightforward - often it can simply be a matter of giving someone like that permission to say what they want while letting them know that they are safe and will be listened to. (And sometimes that doesn't work.) I used to be very PA because I was terrified of conflict, and sometimes stuff would boil over but I didn't have the courage to deal with it directly. My dh has been great about giving me permission to be honest and straightforward about my grievances, and that's been great for our relationship.

(b) is harder because it requires a lot of self awareness to overcome. Say you come into a relationship believing this: "Someone who loves me will be able to anticipate my needs, and will respond to my upset accordingly." And so, when they are feeling upset, it's not just that they want the upset resolved. They want proof that they are loved - and because they are upset, they want it even more so! So, they wait for you to prove your love by guessing what is wrong, or caring enough to dig until you spill it. Unfortunately this often leads to conflict, which leads to a greater need for Proof Of Love, which leads to more passive aggression in order to elicit what they want! And around and around it goes.

That was also me a long time ago. After much therapy, I have learned to be much more direct, have learned to challenge those beliefs about What Love Looks Like™, and am now much more direct with people... and my relationships are much better as a result.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

With my mum, she'd hang up or huff up if I didn't tell her how wonderful she was or if I disagreed with her. It got to the point where I just let her. Dad and Sis thought I was a rotter but big deal. I couldn't deal with it any more (I was pg at the time). She's a bit better now, but not much. If I don't drive 5-6 hours (minimum) to see her Easter weekend (Easter weekend - maybe a 10-hour drive on Thursday night with DS in the car) then I'm awful. She's offered to pay fuel, we'll stay at her house, I don't have a spare room so it's hard for her to visit... just the small matter of the fact I have a toddler to deal with too, but obviously she''ll "help" with him.

Just a quick Q: I have had a problem recently. I've had to leave my teaching course because my school tutor said I wasn't good enough to continue. She gave me little help, instead just spent our time together telling me how rubbish I was. She flagged me up with the Uni as a concern (without telling me, after I said that I'd had a bad week and this is how I'm going to correct it), then avoided me for any more tutor meetings. Despite other teachers I worked with telling me that I was doing well, she told my uni tutor that I was rubbish. NOW - is it being PA to blame her for me failing, or is it that I failed and it's all my responsibility? I've obviously not told you here my views on how I was doing as a teacher (enjoying teaching but dreading seeing my tutor - although that doesn't mean I was good at teaching) but just wondering what you girls thought.

[Trillian]

WTF? LZ, I would be asking first for a new tutor and if that doesn't work, I would transfer your degree to a new Uni.

ROFL G, I don't think it is healthy to be PA back in a normal situation, but your MIL is not normal and it is the only language she understands

[Inanna]

Ginger - one thing I learned is that you don't need to apologise for being honest & straight. If perhaps you could have said it more gently or kindly - of course apologise. But it isn't honest (& I mean this to yourself not that you are lying etc...) or authentic to apologise about how you feel about something or how you see it.
If someone else gets huffy, hurt or tantrumy (not a word but it fits! ) because you have kindly expressed an opinion, idea, thought or point of view - respectfully that's their problem.

I would strongly suggest not saving her. Not defending yourself. But being kind and direct.

She sounds like a piece of work! I think you are being saintly dealing with her the way you are - but you are enabling the behaviour I think.. What you're doing isn't working so try a different tack? I don't know it is very difficult...