Do you smack??

[paradise lost]

bjrose, i think that letting this out will help, truly i do. You two (yourself and DD) are having some tough times, but you CAN come through it.

I think you might be misinterpreting the whole behaviour thing. DD asked you "why are you being nice to me?" because nice isn't the normal thing. You told her you love her and want to be nice. She doesn't know if it's true. She wants to know if you REALLY love her, if you REALLY want to be nice to her, so she's testing you. She's finding out what will happen if... Will mummy still love me? Will she still want to be nice to me? I really feel for you, it's SO hard to come through this sort of testing, but i KNOW you can do it!

Time together- do the other 2 nap? Do they nap when she's around? Honestly if i were you i'd start getting the younger 2 into bed by say 7 or half 7 so you can have a bit of one-on-one with her. I know, chaotic, especially without help (your DH's hours sound awful for you all ) but desperate times (your thoughts re: DOCS and her thoughts on wanting to die) call for desperate measures.

Can you head her off at the pass so to speak with her stubborness? Ask her at bedtime what she wants for breakfast and give her that? Or give her 2 choices in the morning and let her pick? Or sit down and ask her to help brainstorm a week of breakfasts and put them on the calendar so she has warning about what's coming? It might be simpler to have her fight HER than you. You give her 2 choices of breakfast and when she chucks a fit because she doesn't want whatshe picked you say "oh, that's a shame, maybe you need to think harder next time you have to pick" and leave it at that. She can eat it or not. She chose it. If she throws it on the floor she can pick it up or go to time out. IF she tanrtums during whichever she chose, well, that's a pity, maybe she should have made a different choice. The same with all the other things really - she DID eventually choose to do her homework so she copuld use the computer - she's smart, she's going to figure it all out sooner or later, kwim? Try not to put yourself in opposition to her, it only leads to more and more conflicts. Being calm and loving and "nice" REALLY DOES work - eventually. But a kid whose trust is broken needs to regain trust. A kid whose boundaries have moved needs to test new boundaries. A kid like Jaz, who is more needy and demanding and willful by nature needs to have the consistency PROVEN to herbefore she will rely on it. Gentle discipline doesn't always get you well-behaved kids, but it does get you well-adjusted adults.

It must feel like i'm sitting here churning out responses without having to LIVE it, and i KNOW how vast the gulf between saying and doing is hun, really i do. Have you thought of Triple P or other parenting classes for more hands-on advices?

Bx

[paradise lost]

Sorry Liz, just saw your post now!

In that situation i would say "DD we draw on PAPER" and give her paper. If she drew on the wall again i'd say "do you want to draw on paper or do you want to put the crayons away for now?" If she did it again i'd take her crayons away - i actually make HER put them in the tub and then i put the tub out of reach.

Bx

[Lulu]

Hoobley, you have to much to offer. I really enjoy reading your posts, esp these one.

BJ - things WILL go ok for 3 days or so, then she will push the boundaries. So you stand firm. There may be tears and rending of garments but you stand firm. Then it will go ok for maybe 5 days, then she might push. Then you stand firm again.
The behaviour will take a little while to change, but she will actually feel more secure knowing what will happen. You ARE making progress, even if it doesn't feel like it and yes it is tiring.

I think kids are like vessels and some need to be filled more than others. DD was an "easy" child - set boundaries, little push from her to see if they are firm - then all was well.
DS - well he is lots the same as Jaz, he needs HEAPS more attention than the other two - HEAPS, but once he is filled he is fine. It takes a bit and I've learnt alot in the last year, but now he is easier to "fill". If that makes any sense at all.....

[~clover~]

Thanks heaps you guys.
I will persist. I think we've already had the lowest of lows, so I should be able to get through it. Especially if the psycologist picks up a problem at school or what ever & we get that sorted out. Getting DH to try harder to control his temper with her will help too. He is trying, but like I said, at 26 he is still the same as her in that way, so it probably won't be perfect.
But hopefully all will be OK eventually. I'd love a quick fix, but I know it's not possible.
Thanks again to everyone.

[paradise lost]

You're welcome bjrose - i wish i were closer, i'd come over for the afternoon and take the littlies so you and Jaz could have a shopping trip or cafe visit together NO problem!

You're right about having been through the worst bit - you are REALLY doing it, Jaz is just going to keep checking, like Lulu says. I would really recommend the note-passing or diary sharing - i'm pretty sure i saw it once on an episode of supernanny with a very high-needs 7 or 8 year old who had a lot of smaller siblings and was feeling it hard. She had a box for "thoughts" and she would write down something every day about how the day went, at bedtime mum would read the note and they would talk about it. THe first day she wrote something like "It's not fair the other ones get all the attention and you don't even LIKE me" but by the time supernanny was leaving they'd begun to have mum-and-daughter time and the last note said "I really liked ice-skating with mummy, it was my best day EVER. I really love you mummy" I'm tearing up at the memory! LOL. It's always surprising how much someone being able to express their feelings, EVEN when it changes nothing concrete, makes. I guess it makes sense though - i hate paying the bills, doing the dishes and ironing, and telling people makes no difference, but i always feel a bit better after a whinge

I would get DH to make an effort but don't worry about it overly - you can't fix the world and make it perfect for her, no matter how much you want to. Her dad is her dad and they will find their way together somehow. You're responsible for your relationship with her, but not her realtionship with him. He also needs to go through what you are - asking himself what he wants and how to go about getting it.

Keep talking hun, we're all here when YOU need to destress.

Bx

[~clover~]

Thankyou so much. It's so nice when complete strangers care about how I'm feeling. Although You probably know more about my life than most of my friends & family.

& you will probably be hearing a bit more from me reguarding her over the months.

Thanks again. You've got no idea how much it means to me. I have noone around except DH & SIL to talk about it. I can ring my mum any time I want, but she's 10 hours away, so can't really DO much.

[Jennifer13]

I totally understand not having family around means the task of raising our kids falls entirely on our own shoulders much more than perhaps it should. Feel free to share with your cyber-friends any time!

[~clover~]

Thanks Jennifer. It really helps to have all the unbiased oppinions & different pieces of advice.

DH & I are talking about him moving out for a while. That way we can get the one on one time with her. eg, she stays with him one night & the other 2 stay with him the next night.
It would also mean he isn't around her as much, so he might not lose his temper with her as easy.
I do realise that it might make things worse. If it does then he would come back home, its just hard to do the relaxed, calm thing when he can't. & he can't stay out of it when I'm trying.
I dunno if it will happen. Just an idea.

[Nelle]

Wow that's a pretty intense solution Skye! Would he consider going to see a counsellor to give him some tips on how to not take anger/frustration out on others? If your daughter's going to his place, and they're very much like each other, they'd be in each others pockets then with no other people to distract them.

Would a father/daughter date work? My dad took us out on dates, and it was great. We felt really special. Also they can't yell at each other (well, they're less likely to) if they're out in public.

[Cricket]

Skye, I'm not in your shoes, but I think that having her father move out might make your daughter more insecure about the people who love her. I honestly don't think that will help. Nelle has some good suggestions, I think - try some family/couple's counselling, and some father-daughter dates. (Some mummy-daddy dates are always nice too. )
Hope all goes well for you honey. All the best!

[Janie]

Skye, obviously you know your family best, but I would think that that's a solution that could have devastating consequences. For all of you. Nelle's idea of some specific father/daughter time sounds good. Maybe you could try something less drastic like that to start with. And yes, if your DH is really struggling with it that much, then counselling sounds like something to look at.

I hate not to sound supportive, but I really think that your DH moving out could really backfire.

[Sammiejane]

Smaking is a very personal thing and i dont think that anyone should be looked down on, or made to feel like a bad person because they choose this as a form of punishment...

I think smacking has its place...
I also think that there are other ways of discipline that should be tried first.

Skye, your situation is different, Jaz is not like other children and what would normally stop a child doesnt really affect her... i do feel for you hun, you are doing a great job

the thing that we need to ask ourselves BEFORE we raise a hand to our children is - why are we smacking? Is it because we are angry? if so - dont smack, remove the child from you and calm down and then think of how to apprach.

I have spoken to my Mum about this, i was smacked as a child and probably was very warrented at times... there was one occasion that i rememeber being really smacked hard and it really hurt (turned over her knee and smacked on the bum with a hand) - Dad was travelling with work yet again and my sister and i had been sh*ts for days and days, this particular day i tied my sister to the washing line and let her there - it was innocent we were laying cowboys and indians and i caught her - but the rope was round her neck... anyway Mum lost it and i bore the brunt of her anger... she never smacked us after this day

I hope the psych. can help with ways to make it nicer for your whole family

[~clover~]

I know. I agree with all of you. I just feel like if he's in the house it's impossible, but he has just had a month without work. Maybe now that he's back at work & out of the house through the day it'll get easier.
Plus the dog just got Jaz's kitten, so I really don't think we'll go there. The poor kids heartbroken.
I dunno what to do. It's laying at the back door. I closed the door so she can't see it, but I don't think I can move it. I'm a sook when it comes to that sort of stuff.

[Sammiejane]

OH no! how horrid, im a sook too - we have 2 mice in our pantry that i cant bare to kill (so its now the shelf with all the tinned stuff on... DH will kill them soon.

Can Anth move it?

you are right, maybe with him out of the house more things will be a little better - for them both, he possibly loose his temper so quickly.

[~clover~]

I think the dog took it away. Anth's at work. I just hope the kids don't find it when they go out to play.

[Sammiejane]

hopefully it gets buried

[BellyBelly]

Here's Pinky's article on the main site if you haven't posted it already!!!

To Smack or Not To Smack

btw. I don't smack.

[meow]

I find smacking hugely distressing. The fact that there is a segment of our community for which the use of physical punishment is condoned and legal nearly makes me cry and makes my heart sink every time I think about it. No, I don't smack.