Do you find this insulting?

[Curly]

Will IVF clinics actually agree to treat a fertile couple? Does infertility have to be "proven" (for want of a better word) before a couple can undergo treatment?

[suse]

I would imagine that in the US clinics treat anyone who is able to fork over the cash.

Whether Brad & Angelina did in fact use IVF is irrelevant, I don't see the harm in discussing it as a hypothetical.

I don't find it insulting that a fertile couple would choose to go through IVF unnecessarily (although I do wonder at anyone who perceives it as a 'convenience'), although I do believe that they should either pay a premium to allow more resources to be allocated to genuine needs cases, or not receive any Medicare rebates and under no circumstances be given priority treatment over those in need.

I don't see it as an ethical issue in the same way the concept of 'designer babies', as having two babies at once by choice seems vastly different to the future implications of either modifying or rejecting genetic material to enhance 'desirable' traits or remove perceived 'undesirable' traits.

However, I have not been down the IVF path so my perspective might be completely different to those who have.

[BellyBelly]

I am not playing on gossip - what I actually asked in the poll was:

IVF in healthy couples for the sole purpose of twins - do you find it insulting?

Not, do yout think it's true or not....

[Junglemum]

Maybe it was just the way you worded your post......

The word is that Angelina Jolie's twins are IVF babies and that she is actually perfectly fertile - but wanted twins so ordered them via IVF.

I'd like to hear what the women with genuine IVF cases think of this - I'd imagine it is very insulting.

[briggsy's girl]

i think there is a genuine lack of understanding about IVF processes out there. in most cases in Australia, fertility specialists will strongly discourage the transfer of two embryos - and some will outright refuse. its not easy to convince them to transfer two - especially in a younger mum-to-be. there is generaly a history of failed cycles behind that patient before the FS will support the transfer of more than one embryo. i doubt, in Australia, that there would be too many FS' that would allow a multiple embryo transfer to a patient with no proven history of infertility or failed cycles

taking the celebrity and media factor out of the equation - i still find it insulting that an otherwise healthy, fertile couple would choose IVF to have twins, over natural conception which may result in a singleton/twins or more. i also pity anyone that chooses to go down that path with the misguided notion that they'll be guaranteed twins from IVF - it just doesn't work like that even for the most fertile of women. it's not easy - and to be so set in your head that you want this exact family configuration that you would put yourself through it voluntarily makes me wonder about the mental health of that person!

assisted conception technology was developed to help those of us that can't conceive naturally for whatever reason, not to create "designer families"

[sushee]

Brad and Angelina aside - I think any fertile person who thinks IVF is a great way to have twins, then goes through the whole rigmarole (and it's a HUGE emotional and physical toll, as any IVFer will tell you) knowing that there will be only a one in five chance of falling pg, and then again, once pg, only have a 33% chance of carrying twins, and then an even smaller chance than that to carry them BOTH to term, well, to me, if they want to take that chance, I won't find it insulting because plain and simple, they're COMPLETELY clueless.

Lol! This story makes me laugh every time I read it. If you geniunely think IVF is the easy way to having a child, let alone twins, you're seriously misinformed. More likely you'd end up a a few more singletons than have twins straight off.

[diva det]

Ok i will declare my interest here
I am an IVF vetran who had twins using IVF.

Do i find it insulting? Not in the slightest- they are not stopping other couple from doing IVF, nor are they hurting anybody- i say goodluck to them

If they want to put their bodies through the hell and complications that IVF bring, and then a twin pg that brings more risks and complications- i say go for it!!!!

I find it more insulting when people ask me how my twins were conceived. Its no ones damm business and it really doesnt matter how the sperm and the egg got together- they did and THAT IS THAT!!!
It really shouldnt matter to us either how their twins were conceived either- what difference does it really make- none at all

hmm my 50 cents worth

odette

[Liz]

Going by the definition of insulting, no I don't think it's insulting. I agree with Sarah - I think it's crazy! But if anyone wants to put themselves through it all and the risk of a multiple pg, well.. that's up to them. Don't see how it impacts personally on anyone else.

Is it really using up resources? Is there a waiting list for IVF? (not asking rudely - I really don't know) If it stops couples that need it, then I don't think that's right, but not insulting.

The other thought I had is I would assume that the emotional side of IVF would be less, or at least vastly different for fertile couples, as it's not their only way of having -any- children.

[sista]

I had actually read elsewhere that because her husband was getting on in age, they decided it was better. Brad Pitt isn't 35 anymore, and maybe for them as a couple they thought it best to be able to try their luck at IVF to have twins before waiting for one baby, wait for her to recuperate and then try again.

I don't find it insulting at all.

[Aphrael]

I'm not offended by using IVF to conceive twins, I'd personall love to have twins so if you could afford it then go ahead.........No govmt assisance tho and as a PP said, def. not priority.

My cuz has to use IVF to conceive and they have been advised only implant 1 embie as it has more of a chance of success, although they'd love twins but I think just having a baby is more important to them.

Cheers,

Beck

[Baby Angels]

I need to use assisted conception, I ve used IVF and was pregnant with Twins unfortunately they did not survive. I do not find it an insult for naturally healthy men or women to use IVF for twins because I do not have a right to dictate what other people do or do not do and as long as those babies are looked after and loved then why would you have an issue with it. Now all those children who are mistreated.... now there is soemthing to have an issue with.

[~Aveta~]

as a theoretical excersise...

having had natural twins with no family history at a young age, i am aware of the risks associated with a twin pg.

i can see the point of an older couple wanting to increase their chances by having two or more embies transferred, weighing up the associated risk/financial cost of IVF and multiples.

i don't, on principle, agree with designer babies but fully support a couple's decision for genetic testing of embies/gender specification in cases of family-associated genetic issues. (eg hemophilia, CF)

although i personally wouldn't do it, i also support the decision of individuals to do IVF with donor embies.

i absolutely support IVF for single women and same-sex couples who will be financially supporting their kids.


but i do find the notion that an otherwise healthy couple with no infertility issues would choose IVF a bit odd, if not personally insulting.

[Karina]

I find it a bit wrong.. because the way I see it is that they are using up those resources (ie the doctors, nurses, appointments etc at the fertility clinic) that could otherwise be used by someone who does actually need them. So, in that sense I think its pretty unfair, maybe even selfish, and I dont agree with that sort of thing happening.

[AnyDream]

I don't find it insulting, but I am concerned about the apportioning of medical resources to those who are in greatest need.

I'd hate to think that couples who are going through a long and possibly distressing journey to conceive via IVF might miss out on specialist care and attention when they need it because others are using it as a matter of convenience or choice, kwim?

I'm also concerned because when there is greater need, a demand-driven market tends to drive up prices, so again, a negative side affect could be an increase in the costs associated with IVF treatment for those couples for whom this is their only option.

[Cazz]

File this under "Things other people are doing that don't affect me". Why should I care if a healthy person wants to go to through the trouble, expense and discomfort of IVF when they don't strictly have to?

[maz]

All in all

its just another case of money talking

Look at how quickly the superrich adopt their babies....I know a couple that had to wait 10 years......

[diva det]

BG
i am sorry you have had to wait for appoitments for your IVF
in the 6 years i have been doing IVF- i have never had to wait- even at the satellite clinic. I have also never had a cycle delayed or held back due to them being too busy. When it suits me, i have got in- with no hassles
I guess it comes down to how well the clinic is run and its efficiency. BTW i got through MIVF.

also i have noticed since i did my first IVF cycle in 2002, how much things have changed and the protocol has been tweeked as they have had different success rates with different protocols . The more women they have had through- the better they have got at the procedure.

Also, we have no medical reason why we couldnt conceive naturally. It just hadnt happened for 2 years before we did IVF. I ovulate every month, DH sperm is great- just never happened. So does that mean that i would have been called fertile???? and perhaps not given a place under this definition.

As its turned out as you guys know- we now have conceived naturally as well. But that took 8 years to happen on its own. So what happens now if we want to go back and have more children down the track. Are we fertile or infertile????

That's my point! Who gets to decide who should do IVF and who shouldnt!

odette
btw i love heathy debates!!!!!

[Hollybolly]

I've had to sit and ponder a little before I answered, because I need to clarify my thoughts before I know how to explain them
(Still can't guarantee that my dribble to follow will actually make any sense, either )

I'm a little on the fence, if there was an option for 'does it raise emotion' rather than insult, I could have perhaps answered a little better... I'll explain!!!

In general, I'm not insulted that otherwise fertile couples want to choose IVF to conceive - it really makes no difference to my situation & my life, so everybody live as they choose and use any resources available... good luck to you

To put my heart on the line though, it hurts like hell... so whilst I'm not insulted, the word I could use better to explain my feelings would be envious.

I think any of us who have been on the IVF road can answer differently - depending on where we're up to in our cycles.

We're about to start cycle #5 - 4 cycles of pure hell and we're still going back for more because the desire for a baby just completely outweighs anything else.

I'll use Brad & Angelina for an example - but for me it applies to any fertile couple who have succeeded using IVF when they haven't necessarily needed to....

1) I'm envious that it worked at all for them
2) I'm envious they were ALLOWED 2 embryos with no fertilty issues
3) I'm envious that both embryos took
4) I'm envious that they have a baby or babies in their arms when after more than 6 years we're still trekking on...

BUT - thats because at this point in time, I'm not there yet.

It hasn't worked for us yet, we had to fight like hell & be put through proven failed cycles before we were allowed the option of multiple transfers, and as of yet, we haven't had any embryos take to carry on and result in a baby for us

Its a raw question for any of us struggling and who have yet to gain results - and to answer without being bias (for me anyway) is impossible.

It hurts like hell that its so easy for others - That may not be the 'polite' or 'correct' thing to say, but its the truth.

We're putting our hearts on the line every day of our lives & someone says 'hhhmmm, here's an easier alternative' - And you know, its not... but in their case, it actually has been.... now THERE'S some irony huh?!!!

In saying all of that, its not so much insulting - if I had had all of my intended IVF cycles, was successful and had my babies in my arms, then I can't imagine this would effect me at all - but I'm not there yet, so it does.

This particular example with Brad & Angelina makes me smile... I actually started a thread about it when I read the report on the news headlines - It makes me smile because the journalist has obviously NO comprehension of what is involved in an IVF cycle.
To be under the dillusion that this is the easier alternative makes me smile at the ignorance... but good luck to anyone that is able to believe that.


Lucky them that this world has spared them this time round of this horrific struggle.
Not only is it a battle against your fertility & a struggle of the most powerful of desires to gain a child - but it is the ultimate test in your self worth, the ultimate test within a marriage or partnership, and most importantly the battle to maintain the health of your mind, your heart, your body... and ultimately your sanity.


I wish I too was spared enough in this lifetime to have that ignorance, but as it stands, its not to be

So my answer (although I've certainly gone the long way round to find it) is that I don't find it insulting - but I answered in the poll that yes it does - it is because it hurts enough, that for lack of a better word, at this point in time, yes I do find it insulting. (I appreciate that that statement may just not make any sense at all!)

Ask me again after my next cycle if I'm lucky enough to come out with a baby