Do you find this insulting?

[butterfly_warrior]

Another one applauding here, too.

Yes, all that can be said has been said... sadly, those who don't, won't or can't understand will continue to be ignorant no matter what, and those of us who have been through the horrors of IVF and infertility will continue to beat our heads against brick walls trying to make people understand that it's not as simple and straight forward as it is made to seem at times.

BW

[~ Mylitta ~]

Kelly, i know this topic has gone off point from what you started it out as, and i'm sorry if i have contributed to that in any way. i am just passionate about making sure people understand this from the POV of a long termer...

I thought that the majority of posts in this thread were great. It's obvious that people have some very strong opinions on this topic, and for the most part, I thought everyone was debating in an extrememly mature manner. I want to thank everyone for making this thread very enjoyable to read, thought provoking, and for teaching those of us that don't know much about IVF more about the procedures, details and emotions involved.

Kelly, I don't think that the journalist should feel bad at all about the responses that were posted. There are some great responses that I think really encompass the entire issue. I understand if she no longer wants to run the article, but I think that an article could actually highlight some of the "unknowns" about IVF to the general public.

[Liz]

It is obvious to me now that many, many people not only have no idea about the workings of IVF, but are also blissfully ignorant (or have no empathy) for the those who suffer the kind of pain and despair that comes with long term infertility.

Not sure I understand.. does that mean those that voted that they were not insulted are ignorant and have no empathy for those undergoing IVF?

From what I've read, insulted doesn't seem to describe a lot of the emotions expressed in this thread. If anything there is anger that otherwise fertile couples could take up valuable resources, envy has been mentioned as something people are feeling too. So I don't think not understanding how 'insulted' comes into the equation is showing a lack of empathy, it seems more like a misunderstanding of the emotions expressed. I personally think it was a badly worded question and has thrown off some of the responses.

[barney]

BG & BW.. just, thank you for having your say as some of us dont feel comfy enough doing this and you both couldnt have said things on this topic better and i agree in saying unless you have actually been through ivf then sometimes people just dont get IT!!

[briggsy's girl]

Not sure I understand.. does that mean those that voted that they were not insulted are ignorant and have no empathy for those undergoing IVF?

From what I've read, insulted doesn't seem to describe a lot of the emotions expressed in this thread. If anything there is anger that otherwise fertile couples could take up valuable resources, envy has been mentioned as something people are feeling too. So I don't think not understanding how 'insulted' comes into the equation is showing a lack of empathy, it seems more like a misunderstanding of the emotions expressed. I personally think it was a badly worded question and has thrown off some of the responses.

Liz - i'm pretty sure that comment had nothing to do with the voting results. i read it as being more about the comments that are basically telling people to "get over it", the ones that are saying those of us who do feel insulted and/or offended have no right to feel that way....

[sushee]

No LIz, that's not what I meant, so I'll clarify.

There have been posters here who have said that they feel that there is no reason for an IVFer to feel legitimately upset, insulted, annoyed, whatever, by something like this. These posters, I feel, are the ones who are ignorant of the kind of pain and depth of despair that comes with long term infertility.

I voted that I was not offended either, so no, of course I didn't mean if you voted that you were not insulted, that you were ignorant of the pain of IVF.

*snap* BG, ditto.

[Liz]

hmm.. ok. Feels like it's a bit of a battle of words more than anything tho, because I didn't read those posts as saying that no-one has the right to feel insulted, but rather not understanding how people can feel personally insulted by other people's decisions on how they conceive.

I guess, again, it's all about personal experience how to take what things are said. I'm not an IVFer so dont' necessarily have an emotional response to these posts.

[Baby Angels]

I have read through opinions and as someone who has been through IVF resulting in twins who didnt make it through the pregnancy and I am about to go again even though it is the most gut renching thing to do and physically changes you...... I am still not insulted by someone who can naturally conceive using it to have twins. My only thought would be.... why would you deliberatly put yourself through something that years later you are still trying to recover from.... wouldnt it be easier to have 2 natural pregnancies....... I ve done that too... and I know which option I would go with IF i had the option which i no longer do.

In My Opinion...... as long as the children are loved and cared for.

[sushee]

On the outside, it seems easy enough to say 'why should anyone care how anyone else conceives'? Or to wonder why anyone would be insulted. But to a long term IVFer, to whom the world can sometimes seem full of injustice, to hear that a fertile couple, by virtue of their money or their status, would use IVF for the sake of the 'fashion statement' of having twins, would and does upset. These are people who would give their right arm to be so lucky as to have one child naturally, who wish they would never have had to undergo IVF. For them to see IVF used as a matter of convenience and vanity, trivialises the very real, very raw journeys many IVFers are going through.

So yes, I imagine it then upsets them to hear people telling them that they have nothing to be upset about, because they do have a legimate reason for being upset.

ETA I don't think even one LTer who's posted in this thread is concerned by anyone who voted that they were not insulted by this topic. In fact, many (including me) voted that they weren't insulted. But when it is suggested that those who voted that they were insulted should perhaps 'concentrate on their own lives', 'not concern themselves with what others are doing' or that it's 'bizarre' that they would be insulted, that's an attack on their very personal reaction borne out of their difficult circumstances. I don't blame them for being upset. I'm upset on their behalf.

[Neenee Jellybeanie]

I'm not insulted but I don't agree with it either, for all the reasons that have already been said. If there's a natural alternative, it seems frivilous to use a difficult medical method, though it sounds to me like anyone who WOULD do that probably isn't informed on the reality of it (such as the fact that it doesn't guarantee a twin pregnancy). I can completely understand how one would be insulted if they'd been through IVF. It must be awful to go through that, particularly if it's been a difficult journey, and then see others doing it for no real reason. I don't think that fertile couples should have access to fertility treatments no matter how big their bank balance. The other thing is, I don't agree with someone deliberately having twins because of the extra complications that can arise.

[Karina]

I find it a bit wrong.. because the way I see it is that they are using up those resources (ie the doctors, nurses, appointments etc at the fertility clinic) that could otherwise be used by someone who does actually need them. So, in that sense I think its pretty unfair, maybe even selfish, and I dont agree with that sort of thing happening.

[elixa]

that would be interesting to find out whether any IVF clinics would treat fertile couples to conceive twins, or for people who would be willing to pay huge sums of money (maybe not in Australia but overseas)

slightly off topic but interesting how suddendly so many hollywood people are having twins "naturally".

[nanananny]

Well I'd like to thank the people on this thread that have helped me

hollybolly for her awesome post back there, yep I'm not insulted but it raises emotion.

BW for this line: None of us NEED to be a mother. But that biological urge is there for a reason. If it weren't there, where would the human race be?

And minky for making me think, so that next time when I'm sooo envious sitting next to that heavily pregnant lady at the IVF clinic I will wonder what her story is and know that maybe it's her little IVF miracle after say seven tries? Thanks so much minky.

And for the record I asked my DH his opinion of all this and he wasn't offended at all and wondered if he was missing something? I suppose his opinion influenced mine because I never know what I'm feeling :/

But I know that if I had to wait in line because someone fertile had pushed in in front of me I would be ropable. I have never had to wait at my clinic?

When I thought "journalist" I thought some middle aged bloke not a mother with a toddler.

[butterfly_warrior]

I think that's how the rumour started, elixa. Many hollywood women are having twins in their late 30s and 40s, and are openly admitting to using IVF in order to get pregnant. This starts an assumption that all people having twins used IVF and off we head down the slippery slope to "no fertility problems, they used IVF merely to have twins". People forget that sometimes twins happen naturally. Sure, not as frequently as with IVF, but it still happens.

Smithy, thank you. While undergoing IVF I was always pretty determined to make people understand the realities of it. Now that I've come out of the other side with success, I'm even more determined. I know there are times you just can't stand up and be heard because the emotions are still too raw.

BW

[anney]

Hi girls,
I have not contributed to this thread because of exactly what you said here BW.

I know there are times you just can't stand up and be heard because the emotions are still too raw.

but I think I can now as many of you lovely ladies have expressed some of the emotions I have been feeling.

I don't find the concept of having IVF to produce twins "insulting" but I do find it upsetting. I didn't vote as it is not quite the right word for me. In some ways it is resentment that someone can do what I can't but that they still want more. In some of the posts in this thread people have said everyone has the right to choose how they conceive. And that upsets me because no-one who has to do IVF would choose to do it. being infertile takes many choices away as you are forced to do somethings you would never wish to do. Just a few I can think of:
* stick yourself with needles a few times a day
* subject yourself to anaesthetic and surgery
* use your sick leave/annual leave/days off for doctors appointments/surgery
* ask your co-workser to cover for you for appointments
* sometimes have to tell your boss and co-workers about needing to do IVF
* work your social life around surgeries
* have sex when necessary (and not when you want to)

I am one of the lucky ones as medically I find IVF a breeze and have never had any problems, although I have had to undergo an unnecessary procedure. But I find the social aspects and the lack of choice and the things that are imposed on you to be really difficult. I guess it is having choice and control taken away. So for someone to still have control and choice over their fertility but then still want more, it upsets me. Yes, partly the green eyed monster but hopefully we are all allowed a little of that.

Can I say also that "assisted conception" is a business in America and some other countries, that does not resemble even slightly what we are able to do in Australia. In the US, as well as being able to transfer two embryos, you can buy eggs, sperm and surrogacy. In most states of australia, you cannot do any of that. I think the journo was right in deciding not to publish the story, even if only for the reason that it gives the wrong impression of what can be done in australia. I get a bit annoyed, with anything in the media that comes from the US and they try to localise it. We are very different societies with different laws and norms.

[butterfly_warrior]

Anney, you just reminded me about the one thing I'd forgotten about... they way people treat you differently because you are using IVF to conceive. Because I became so ill after egg collections, it was necessary for me to tell more people at work than I wanted to. One in particular then figured she had free reign on asking me where we were at with cycles, and when we were transferring. I simply could not get her to understand that her questions were intrusive and upsetting and the equivalent of asking someone when they were having sex if they were able to cencieve the natural way...

Yes, IVF turns your whole life upside down.

BW

[Lenny]

What you said Sushee - but i can never put my thoughts into words like you do!

I only hope that the money that is paid/received by all IVF treatments goes towards improving outcomes for all in terms of conception.

Insulted isn't the right word, but I do worry about the futrure and designer babies.

[CathieW]

Hey I don't really care about Angelina and brad.
I'm pregnant with twins and I always get people asking me was it natural.
Yeah it was, just because I'm having twins dosen't mean I used IVF, it can happen
without IVF.

Cathie