Do you find this insulting?

[Dandi]

I have been through 12 years of infertility, 5 of those years were IVF years which resulted in me being pregnant but unfortunatly i miscarried them both. sadly not all IVF results in a happy outcome. The last time i went on IVF i nearly died as a severe side affect of the combination of the drugs & the egg collection itself. I put on 24kg in 4 days, just in fluid, had 2litres of fluid drained from my chest cavity so i could breath, my liver was failing & i was cathiterized due to the impact on my kidneys. Oh & not to forget my ovaries had swollen to the size of oranges, close to rupturing, the pain was excruciating & lasted a week. The inability to even sit up in the hospital bed or wipe my own backside was as you could imagine-degrading. This is far from a sympathy vote but is the true story of the other side of IVF that we don't often hear about. The toll it takes on your body in every way imaginable is hard, not to mention your marriage-if it survives-mine didn't. Fortunatly good things come to those who wait. I conceived naturally, out of the blue to my wonderful partner of 4yrs. Iam 14wks preg, had a few scares along the way but all is good. Life is great. Yes, i find the idea of using IVF on a healthy couple to achieve twins, insulting.

[sallie]

I don't really find it 'insulting' per se but I do get jealous and think 'Bloody hell, all I'm asking for is one!'

[*Hope*]

I have been through IVF (ICSI cycle) and do find it a little insulting that someone would choose to go through IVF that does not need to.
We, like many couples have been down the long hard and heart breaking path of trying to conceive for three years (charting and other hormone treatments). We then had to go down the IVF path which was another whole level of emotional and trying times (and not to mention time consuming and expensive - not that we cared at all).
I feel frustrated that someone would chose to go through a multitude of Drs appointments, scans, hormone treatment, injections, procedures, invasive tests etc, when we didn't have a choice.

I am feeling emotional just typing this post and words are eluding me, but I simply feel that it is unfair and shallow to just want twins. I just want a healthy baby and if we were blessed with twins then we would be able to say bye bye to this process that we would not have chosen to have in our lives.
Now up to Cycle No 4 , TTC bub #2. One little angel....

[satya]

I voted that I don't need assistance & find it insulting.

In actual fact I was told twice I needed IVF but conceived naturally.

I guess it's not exactly insulting but I do think it's wrong for people to be asking for more than one baby. I do not have any issues with people getting two transferred but of course I'm talking about infertile couples here.

I am very glad I live in Australia where this scenario would not be possible.

In the US IVF clinics have very different rules to ours. In general if you are under 30 they transfer 2, 30-38 3 is the usual, 38 to 40 4 is standard and over 40 they will transfer as many as they get. Some less scrupulous IVF clinics there will implant more than these amounts in younger women. It supposedly increases your chances but what it really does is it helps increase their statistics for pregnancy rates which of course are far higher than their statistics for live births due to the m/c risk for multiple pregnancies.

Why anyone would "order" twins I can't imagine. One bub keeps me pretty busy.

[richelle_84_2004]

I'm torn on this, in so many ways it is wrong because there are so so many people genuinely struggling to have just one baby, but then at the same time its kind of like, well if they are silly enough to waste the money, time, emotions etc on it well more fool them.

Overall, isn't the important thing that the babies are loved? If someone is willing to pay to have twins put in them then to me it shows that they are committed and will cherish the children.

Such a hard one to decide on!

[sushee]

I think whether or not you 'pay' to have your child (twins or not) you should be committed to loving them and caring for them, shouldn't you? To me, having a child IS a commitment - you don't need IVF to show you have a commitment to your child/ren. As much as I love my (IVF) son, I don't expect I love him anymore deeply than a mother who conceived naturally. I don't think IVF or the amount of money spent necessarily equates with the amount of love you will give your kids.

[briggsy's girl]

ditto sushee - i was thinking the same!

having the money to be able to pay to have your child doesn't show you love them any more or less than a naturally conceived child. some of the best parents i know struggle to get by week to week - and others that have money to throw away frivolously aren't all that great as parental role models. a child isn't a fashion accessory that you should "pay" to have, and certainly paying doesn't make you love them any more - it doesn't show a strong desire to have another child - it shows an attitude of getting what you want simply because you can!

if you have the capacity in your heart to love, you'll love your child no matter what. my children, when i have them, will be loved irrespective of whether they come from IVF or a quick roll in the hay with DH. that is the kind of love you should have for a child - not the kind of love that is conditional on you "getting it all your way"...

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

I don't think I'd feel any differently about DS if I'd have "paid" for him. I have enough love for more babies, and the joy is I don't have to worry about not being able to pay the mortgage or dying in the process of conceiving. That's wonderful for me and I am very blessed to have that - but that doesn't lessen the love I have for him or any potential future child.

This has been so eye-opening and tbh people do need to know more about the specifics of IVF - AND the specifics of what can be done in which country. OK, so Australia has a good record, the US is concerned more about money (now there's a shocker).

Thank you all so much for sharing your stories, ladies, no matter how insulted and hurt you are feeling about this issue.

[2boyz]

Hi there,

I will start by saying that I dont believe ANYTHING I read in the celebrity mag's.

I would be rather dissapointed if someone I knew used IVF for the sole purpose of having twins. Why not just try for 2 close together??
There are soooo many couples having trouble with having 1 baby and probably cant afford IVF if you can afford to waste money on your own selfish 'wants' why not help someone else?

[farmgirl77]

Interesting topic! As some one doing IVF for medical reasons, and about to have a cycle where two embryos are put back, I dont find it insulting that someone not 'infertile' would undergo treatment to try and have twins.

From a rational perspective I guess I wonder at why you would do that given the extra risks associated with any medical treatment (eg stim medication/pick up operation etc), and the risks of a twin pregnancy, and yet DH and I are willing to take on the risk of twins to achieve our baby(ies).

However, there are many reasons why 'fertile' people may use IVF/AFT (as stated earlier by BG), and from an emotional viewpoint I guess I dont feel that I can judge them just because their use of IVF is for a different reason than us.

As argued by many others, IVF is not a walk in the park emotionally or medically, so I figure if people make the choice to do IVF (for medical or other reasons), and try for twins, then they must have a very good reason. Personally, I dont want to judge if that is a good or bad reason to do IVF, as I hate it when people do that to me!

[LisaL]

IVF doesnt guarantee you even one baby, let alone twins, so to do it for the sole purpose of having two babies at once is a serious misuse of the treatment IMO. There are women on waiting lists, and those who can only afford to do it every so often, and these are women that need it. So why the drs are allowing 'fertile' couples to use the system is beyond me.

[Mummyof2under2]

I don't have fertility issues and i don't find it insulting.

If they can afford to have the IVF and raise the kids without government handouts let them do it.

[Devon]

I guess this is a complicated question, because the info about Brangelina is just a rumour, and what they are rumoured to have done wouldn't be allowed to happen in Australia anyway. I think the Australian system is good, keeping the AR treatments for people who need them. I would hate us to go down the US path where money can buy you anything and the poor get no health care.

I guess what I find a little bit annoying (if the scenario with Brangelina is true, which I'm not saying it is) is that the super rich can get anything they want, anytime they want and the rest of us plebs have to go thorough the whole waiting game and might not end up getting what we desire more than anything else in the world. But it doesn't really apply to us here in Australia, so it doesn't really have any impact on my life. I like to try to ignore celebrities because I don't think they deserve all the attention they get.

As for fertile people being allowed to have IVF to conceive twins, as people have said - there's no guarantee that you'll even get pg through IVF, let alone conceive twins. The thing I find most irritating is the total lack of awareness out there of what is really involved in IVF (I haven't done IVF myself, just OI and IUI, but I've definitely spent some time in the world of fertility treatment). I can't stand the general perception that IVF is an easy option when it's pretty much the hardest option you can take and no one who knows anything about it would even contemplate it unless it was their only option. Our two years of TTC, miscarriage and 6 months of fert treatment almost destroyed me, lost me 2/3 of my friends and we are still feeling the impacts on our marriage even now I am pg. And I didn't even go through IVF. So what I find insulting is the media and society being uneducated and perpetuating the view that IVF is an easy and guaranteed way to get a baby.

[Elyse84]

"Brangelina" are a VERY public couple, and we all know that what is printed by the media often has no scrap of truth to it.

I guess at the end of the day no one really knows what goes on inside a relationship other than those in the relationship. IMPO i dont think it is fair to speculate on wether it was right or wrong untill they admit that they did in fact use assisted conception to conceive the twins.

TTC is an emotional rollercoaster as we all well know. Angelina has redialy admitted that she has had mental health issues in the past, maybe TTC was taking a toll on her health?

I dont think anyone has the right to question ANYONES decision to use assisted conception. As it is a personal decision. I think the real question here should be how would you feel if the whole world was questioning your reasons if you were using this method for conception??

I think people are forgetting that they have now adopted 3 children, and no doubt more in the future. They spend a hell of a lot of time working with charity organisations around the world, not to mention the millions and millions of dollars that they donate.

I think it is sad that people are focusing on their methods of conception as opposed to their humanitaran efforts. That is by far the greatest injustice of this whole issue.

[briggsy's girl]

Elyse - if you ready the majorty of this thread, it is "Brad and Angelina aside" - even the initial poll question. what celebrities do in their life is of no consequence to me. i'm not a gossip monger, i don't read anything about them, or any other celeb, and i really couldn't care less what is going on in their lives. their humanitarian efforts, their mental health issues - they are not relevant to this discussion at all

what IS relevant is that the media use something that is EXTREMELY personal to a lot of us, and make it into the latest gossip to sell a few extra issues in a slow news week. the mentality that "if you can afford to pay to have your children conceived to your liking, who cares" - sorry, but a lot of us DO care. this attitude that money is able to buy you what you want is ridiculous and it's that attitude that so many of us find highly insulting. we're by no means living on the poverty line, but we have to work damn hard to save the dollars to pay for a treatment we have NO CHOICE but to undertake if we want to have a family. i have to submit to invasive, humiliating medical tests, risk my health every time, face a higher than normal chance of miscarriage, just to have a CHANCE to conceive even one child. i KNOW there is no guarantee of it working - and i sure as hell know there is no guarantee that there will be a twins pregnancy if two embryo's are put back - and i find it insulting that people think i'm taking the easy way out to do it this way!

[sushee]

I'm not specifically talking about Brad and Angelina here, but when a couple uses IVF for the SOLE purpose of having twins, that to me, goes beyond IVF for the purpose of treating infertility, and becomes about taking for granted what your body can already do naturally in the pursuit of a 'fashion statement' (which, truthfully, is FAR from guaranteed, anyway).

I do believe that it's fair for people to have an opinion on the matter. I know I would have strong opinions if IVF were used to help a convicted child abuser conceive a child, so there is a line in the sand that we all have as to what we feel is acceptable and unacceptable to us. And no, I have no problems with anyone questioning why I used IVF to conceive. I know why I have - I am infertile. Which is what IVF treats. I've certainly not kept it a secret, so why would I have a problem with that?

[Kitt3n]

excellent post bg

[Elyse84]

Briggies Girl - I know that the poll was refering too. But I was responding to the original post with regards to Angelina and Brad.

Your completely right, it is wrong that the media are using such a personal issue to sell more magazines. And I stand by my opionon with regards to how that may make Angelina and Brad feel. And (as I said in my post) I dont beleive that anyone has the right to question anyones reasons for using IVF or assisted conception It is for most people a very private personal decision and I imagine a very emotional time. It is an option that myself, partner and doctor have discussed for myself and I wouldnt like being questioned on my reasons for pursuing it if we decided to go through with it. So in that in mind I wouldnt questions others.

I personally dont find it insulting because everyone has reasons for pursuing it, BUT having said that i dont beleive that I am in a position have a strong opinion on the matter because I am not personally using assisted conception at this stage.