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The bit that got me was that there was a bit in there that says something along the lines of... some children will go to lenghts of vomiting or pooing just so they dont have to go to bed
Now if my child was that destraught that they were vomiting or pooing and all i was doing was cleaning them without a word and repeating the process until they 'learnt' to go to bed, i might have a fantastic sleep at the age of 2 but seriously YOU CHILD IS VOMITING ITS THAT DISTRAUGHT!!!! what emotional scars will i have given her in the process????
after that sentance i put it down and i have never opened it again!
Mj just turned 2, she still sometimes wakes (more than once a week), i learnt that she needed a bedtime routine as in bath/play/story/feed/bed but thats about the cues and these are talked about by many 'experts'... Try not to get caught up in the fact that some babies are sleeping through, cos most REALLY are not.
Approach it in a calm manner, remind yourself everyday that there will be a point that your child sleeps all the way through the night (not many partents to 5 yo that have to settle their child back to sleep every night!) and that you will have helped them develop a great attitude to sleep by not forcing them to sleep. It is an evolving process, what i do now was different to 6mths ago, and very very different to that when she was 6mths old. learn together and try and approach without anxiety or stress as your baby will pick up on this.
People that write books are not experts, they just have been able to publish a book, if i tried hard, i could do the same - doesnt make me an expert at all.
Oh and dont compare or talk about what you are doing (other than in here), it only give people the oppertunity to criticise!!!
Good luck
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That's what I reccon too! If you take elements from a routine and discard the rest then you're not really following it then are you? How can one claim it to work for them as a result?
The strict routine makes me shudder. I don't know how one expects to have a life with it. I personally think if I had followed it I would have had suffered more from the isolation of no social life than having sleepless nights.
Last edited by ~Raven~; March 5th, 2010 at 11:37 AM.
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There is passage in her book that talks about the use of a dummy or not, and she actually says this that some research has shown that the use of a dummy may prevent SIDS, but she finds the negative outcomes associated with the use of a dummy outweighs the possible benefits of one'..............WHAT??????
Did she just write that????? The 'possible' benefits being to keep your child ALIVE????? WTF?
BellyBelly Member
Raven, Astrid - Why must you follow any advice to the T to say that it's helped you? To say that I use the routines and have found them really useful, but didn't listen to the CIO advice doesn't mean that the book hasn't been worthwhile. That's like saying you would use every single tip from Pinky McKay or any other 'gentle parenting' text to make it a worthwhile purchase or to say it worked for you.
Again - The routine actually made my life easier to get out and about - it's 10 o'clock, put her to sleep in pram/car/wherever. I have found that using the routine has ensured that I don't get that 'overtired' baby and that it really works for us.
I don't think Tizzie Hall is the messiah, but neither is Pinky or any other 'gentle' author (or anyone else for that matter) However, I have found Tizzie really useful for us and I will continue to try and balance the recommendations given here.
Do what works for you and what feels right for you and those choices are what we should ALL be supporting.
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whilst I am by no means a fan of Tizzy's recommendations, I think the above statement is alluding to the fact that the use of dummies often causes breastfeeding problems, and lack of breastfeeding contributes to illness and sids in babies. So the decrease in risk by using one could be negated by the risk of not breastfeeding, ifswim.
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I never said that you had to follow it to a T, but ponder at which point is what you are doing no longer like the book. You can have a pav with passionfruit or with berries, personal choice, but you are still having a pav. If you change the recipe so much that you serve me up meatloaf claiming it to be a pav, then I am not going to want your pav recipe. That is just how I see what is happening with a lot of the mums I have come across that use SOS.
Now with Pinky, it is not about following her advice to a T, she is about following instincts, being confident in choices and most of all taking time. She touts no cures for all the various things that a baby could have. Her books are not about routine, there are a lot of tips and advice to take what works for you.
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traveller - i see your point, but not sure if that was what she was trying to say at all. TH is not particularly breastfeeding friendly, her advice is terrible on this and she shows no real understanding about how breastfeeding works and the joy and health benefits of doing so. My mother is a midwife and is currently reading this book, making notes as she goes and I can tell you she is horrified at some of the things she has written.
I also dont think she was intending to say that preventing SIDS is not important, I simply think her book is poorly written and researched, is irresponsible and to be perfectly honest, DANGEROUS!
BellyBelly Life Subscriber
I don't like experts with regimes that demand rigid enforcement, with dire warnings about what will happen if you give in to your child. They set up parents and children as diametrically opposed forces - the parents must exert their will over child and quash opposition. Instead of a little human being needing nuturing to become an adult one day, children are seen as problems to be solved and the regimes are presented as a 'fix'.
These experts start from an assumption that parents are doing the wrong thing. When they say "you must not..." in relation to things that are natural parent behaviours - like rocking or feeding your baby to sleep, for instance - they tell parents to distrust their natural instincts and stop listening to their child.
I think if you listen to your instincts, know your child and respond to them then I think it's fine to pick and choose hints and tactics from wherever you may find them. But for a vulnerable new parent struggling with sleep deprivation and probably wondering if they're doing the right thing, it's dangerous to hold up a strict regime as a 'fix'. This tells the parent that their child is a problem to be solved and that their instincts are not to be trusted.
And, they must strictly adhere to this regime or it won't work; reinforcing these messages, further undermining their trust in themselves and, i think very cleverly, giving the authors a ready-made 'out' if it doesn't work. Because I think a lot of these regimes are very unrealistic for parents and children alike, making it very difficult to follow them to the letter.
The odd parent may find it works if they follow it to the letter. Many other parents may find things improve if they take parts of the program and adapt them for themselves.
Dollyroux, I see your point, but I guess what worries me is when parents hold up a particular expert as some sort of saviour, when the truth is, as you say, "you found them really useful". Likewise, I've gleaned useful advice from pinky, pantely and sears, but I don't follow any of their stuff strictly (though I think it bears mentioning that none advocate a strict regime or routine like TH et al, or at least not that I'm aware of).
I'm biased of course because I just don't like the central message that TH and others of her ilk deliver to parents; I prefer the Sears of this world, with his 2 golden rules for parents:
1 - Know your child
2 - Make your child feel good
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well said marcellus! Dont read books and follow instructions, read your baby and follow your insticts!
BellyBelly Member
So why can't you do this for Tizzie?
Just thought I'd add, I have no affiliation with Tizzie what so ever, I have just found that the routines have worked awesome for us, and we have had very few sleep issues.
As for her being dangerous...once again I think this is unhelpful fear mongering and is very unsupportive of other peoples parenting choices.
Some aspects of attachment parenting would not work for me, and I think some are out and out ridiculous but I would never ever say that to someone because I believe parenting is tough enough without other parents abusing parents choices - which is a lot of what this thread is doing.
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Yes, but SHE thinks she is the messiah!! That's what ****s most of us who dont like her draconian methods. What she does isn't raising children, it is raising emotionally detatched shells who look a little bit like children. And do you know what is really disturbing? The fact that she is reprinting her book in CHINESE MANDARIN!!!!! WTF does she even think she is doing? Typically the Chinese are attachment parents, although I imagine that there is less and less of that now than what there used to be. That kind of stunt proves to me that the TH propaganda machine is just as evil as Nestle.
What she suggests isn't natural. How would you like to be told by someone "OK, it's time to eat/sleep/**** now"? You wouldn't.
If I were going to the baby show I would ask her how the heck does SHE sleep at night.
ETA - I don't have anything against routines at all, but I would prefer that they were baby led ones and that is what I have done with all 4 of mine. And those of us who don't like her aren't judging a parent for using her methods but we don't have to understand why anyone does. I just don't like a parenting practice that is PROVEN to have physchologically damaging effects on babies and children. What she does IS harmful to babies and children. Tell me how does saying that letting your baby or child cry till they VOMIT a good thing?
Last edited by Trillian; March 5th, 2010 at 03:17 PM.
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As far as the Danger word goes... ok from my own experience...
When ds wasn't sleeping and DH and I were out of ideas we got every book available at the Library and perused them... I picked up SOS and by the time i had finished, I felt the words on the page reprimanding me as i was doing all the "wrong" things..picking him up, feeding him to sleep (in bed sometimes), rocking to sleep, etc etc. ...as a result i felt anxious and a bit disturbed thinking that i was the reason my ds wasn't sleeping and therefore the sleep deprivation was my doing.
From my experience, to a new mum who had very limited support I can see how reading her book could be classified as DANGEROUS- to new parents and their mental health.
Side note: thankfully it wasn't long at all before I learned to trust my mummy instincts and chucked the book.
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I absolutely stand by the fact that I think her methods are dangerous! I have seen a newborn baby be left alone in their own room to 'cry it out', (at 4 days old) and watched his mother pump while listening to her new born baby cry in the next room, in fear of enouraging 'bad habits'. I have seen a mother breastfeed her baby (who was very sick at the time) until she fell asleep, and instead of allowing the baby to fall asleep at her mothers breast and be cuddled, she woke her up as she 'needed to be stimulated so that she doesnt get used to falling asleep at the breast'. I have seen a baby lose his voice due to crying over an hour. I have seen a mother speak of running out of milk with her newborn - she had tried to feed her every 4 hours at 6 weeks old. I have seen a toddler cry uncontrollably everytime she has to go to bed, because she has developed a fear of being left alone. I have seen a newborn baby be left in a bouncer because his parents dont want to overstimulate him. I have seen parents forcing their newborn baby to bed a 7pm. I have seen parents refer to a baby who doesnt sleep 12 straight hours as a bad baby. I have seen parents panic about rushing home to make sure they dont ruin the routine. I have seen a baby become dehydrated due to hot weather and a parent who feeds strictly on a schedule. Make no mistake, TH instructions are dangerous! They are dangerous because parents are ignoring their instincts. They are dangerous because they dont always work and they assume all babies are the same....and they are not....making parents feel like failures. They are dangerous because desperate parents are relying on her methods to work for them, and because TH encourages them to be strict (STAY STRONG...YOU WILL WIN THIS ENCOUNTER...she says) they dont make allowances for situations where extra cuddles, extra feeding, rocking, patting, dummies, co-sleeping...are appropriate and necessary.
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Thats a really good point. A lot of parents are probably already emotionally on edge when they decide that they need some help and advice from a book and to be told over and over that you are doing the wrong thing could be what tips you over. And that would be for a normal situation and I can only imagine that it would be worse if you had PND. Now I am not saying that any other book is the best or anything of the sort, but I am saying that these books and others like it can be very very damaging because as parents, especially first time parents we do enough second-guessing of our abilities as it is, let alone having a book tell you that you are doing a crap job too by wanting to cuddle your baby!
BellyBelly Member
I am not asking anyone to change their opinion. I am asking people to think about how they critique this book - over emotive posts that are all about "TIZZIE HALL OMG DEVIL" (I know you are all more articulate then that, but it does illustrate my point...)don't do anyone any favours - including your own opinion/argument. I think if you want to critique this book, you can say that you think it's bad and the reasons why but over emotive posts that play on parents emotions are unhelpful for all involved.
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I am only talking about TH and her advice and the reasons why I think the book is bad. I do this by illustrating points with real life experiences...what really happens once the book is read and put into practice. Im not saying YOU are a bad parent, Im saying that she preys on vulnerable parents, who as a result may ignore their own intincts, and make choices that may have quite negative effects.
Quote:
Oringinally posted by Dollyroux:
Over emotive posts that play on parents emotions are unhelpful for all involved...
I believe this is exactly what TH does only she does it through a $30 book.
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I just wanted to add here that I think that unfortunately it is our western society as a whole that creates the whole 'baby not sleeping' issue - when really, there is NO issue, a baby does what it does - which is sleep when it needs too whether it be night or day, cries when it's hungry whether that be hourly or four hourly and seeks attention when it is awake and wanting stimulation/cuddles etc....
If I had a dollar for everytime someone has asked me since my son was born "So is he sleeping through the night yet?", I would be a very rich woman, and these questions started when he was only a few weeks old!!!!!Very soon I learnt to just say that he was, as otherwise I was bombarded with advice on how to get him to sleep through, which was usually CC, even from my female GP who has two kids of her own!! I wasn't fussed though, I was breast feeding about 3 hourly through the night, but back asleep within about 40 mins so I was doing pretty well getting my own sleep anyway, albeit 'interrupted'. It disturbs me how when you are pregnant people throw constant negative comments to the parents-to-be like "Get some sleep while you can", "You'll never be able to ..... have sex/go out/eat a hot dinner/etc etc etc again" which just STARTS the whole issue before a baby is even born. I don't know why some people even bother to HAVE children if they are so negative about it all anyway!!
Anyway, the parents are already on the back foot thinking "What if my baby doesn't sleep through the night, or cries etc etc, they are already thinking there is something WRONG with their child before it's even born
In most cultures other than western ones, mothers sleep with their babies, BF their babies and wear their babies constantly - our society has ALOT to answer for and unfortunately with each generation it seems we are distancing ourselves from our children more and more and ensuring they dont 'intrude' too much on the lives we expect to lead. Personally, finding the BellyBelly site was a lifesaver for me as gentle parenting IS my style so having a community to support that is very important to me.
Although I don't support THs methods, I have read her book (truthfully not realising when I started exactly what her methods were), but I DID find some useful tips in there about sleep associations (we now use a sleeping bag during the day to signal nap time) and a few other bits and pieces that helped me understand how much sleep my baby needs and also I found that the routines almost matched my sons baby led ones anyway - so she's not totally off the mark there either. So reading the next age brackets routine has given me some guidance and expectation of how my baby is changing. So I don't think we should just decided as individuals what other individuals should or shouldn't be reading. It sounds like reading the book was actually fantastic for some of us in the sense that it very much reminded us what we DONT want to be doing, although in my case it was a bit of both.
It's all very well to tell a Mum to follow her instincts, but when a new mother is sleep deprived, emotional and recovering from birthing her baby, sometimes those instincts are not at all obvious to her, so she will seek guidance from books, internet and friends, just like most of us have by the sounds of it. There are going to be mothers that follow THs methods, or part-thereof, but as much as we might not agree with it, it's their choice as a parent.
I would hazard a guess that a large majority of parents that turn to these books are those who are hearing the "Isn't your baby sleeping through" comments and thinking that they should do something about it. I hope that over the next generations we see a return to gentle parenting styles and Mothers spend more time cuddling their babies rather than trying to get them to 'fit' into a timeline that is contrast to the baby's needs.
So after all that rambling, I guess my message is that each mother will choose what works for her, and what advice, guidance or method she identifies with. The best gift we can give a mother is support without judgement and let her know its perfectly normal to be up a number of times a night, to have a messy house because they are spending time with their baby, or that its ok to go home so their baby can sleep if they want too.
Otherwise if we force one way (eg gentle parenting) on a mother just because WE think its right, then we are doing exactly the same as Tizzie Hall and all the other so called experts out there that are pushing their agendas....
**steps off soapbox**
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Dollyroux, if I linked article after article after article of studies done that prove that CIO of extinction crying and detatched parenting are detrimental to an infant/childs health, therefore proving that her methods are no good, would that be acceptable? I have gone well past the point of trying to explain it in a rational way because people who swear by TH just don't want to hear it. She is making MILLIONS of dollars from undermining a parents natural instinct and making them feel like ****house mothers in the process and there is nothing rational about that. I say that she is the devil or evil because she has all of these studies proving that what she is doing isn't good, yet she continues to do it? And make money off it? She isn't sitting around somewhere thinking, "hmmmmm, maybe what I am recommending isn't the best thing after all" NO! she just keeps churning it out.
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