Babies born April 2008 #4

[Fire]

Grubi, the time is child led. They have one main method of communication – crying. If something makes them cry, we try to figure out what it is and remove it. If something stops them crying, we keep doing it. When, such as my case, you cannot physically do what it is that stops them crying, then you hold them while they cry.

An uncomforted baby is disturbing to most people because they have no resources, no way of understanding why they have been abandoned (which is how it feels to them), and their whole biology - which for centuries has them held by loved ones until recent centuries – aches. As one woman put it well, “we are modern women having Stone Age babies”. They still have their instinctual needs, they haven’t had time to evolve as evolution takes hundreds or thousands of years.

We aren’t instinctual anymore, we listen to fads that say do this that and the other or you’ll spoil the baby or he’ll never sleep again… etc. I can’t always stop Ci crying, but I hold him, he is SO new, he can’t hold himself. I want a hug when I’m sad, or at least for those who love me not to walk away or diminish my feelings. And I’m an adult, an adult that gets to sleep with a loved one, who gets to vent her feelings, who can walk and talk on command. As Steph is seeing, they are all learning self-soothing now, it won’t be long before the crying lessens dramatically on its own as they have learned that skill. My son comes first, my daughter has some self-soothing skills now but he doesn't. He needs my help. My daughter is learning compassion and selflessness, it isn’t appropriate for Ci to learn that and give to her yet. His time will come.

There is no hard and fast rule as to how long they need contact, but the general thing to follow is: if I pick him up, is he happier; if I put him down, is he happier?

Until he can crawl (about 6/7 months) and come to you himself.

Then you know for sure what his needs are. If he is not happy either way, hold him regardless. They are the general emotion safety “rules” basically. I will lay in bed with a crying baby, or sit with one, or walk with one, whatever my body is capable of, and put earplugs in if I have to, but I hold him through it, like I would any adult I love.

Six months is not a long time in a lifetime, as much as this irritates the ***** out of me (I ain’t no earth mama) six months for a lifetime’s installment in my son’s emotional life is not too big an ask. He may want contact after that, when it’s inconvenient, and I’ll give it to him as best I can. But in the early months, when he is at a serious disadvantage, doesn’t understand this big wide world and has simple needs – mama’s body, milk, motion and sucking – then I give him those things.

If you go to the first page of every single Baby Buddies thread on this board, you will see the moderator starts the thread with a page full of resources. Scroll down and look under “sleeping support”. You’ll see CC and CIO are not advocated at BB, and there are alternatives given, including info from The Australian Association for Infant Mental Health (AAIMH). Kelly started this site as a gentle parenting forum.

Those “sleep training” step by step guides are bull*****. Excuse the French. They are a fad created in the last half of last century – written by males with no evidence to support their claims and resulted in the mental health industry questioning the whole gambit and finding contradictory results. “timing” how long an infant can cry and then when a mama may go in and give comfort to her baby, as though they are an inanimate object or a dog in need of training is inappropriate, at best. I find babies incredibly inconvenient and frustrating and mind bending and challenging and I cry regularly and I miss my life and I sometimes even regret the whole bloody deal. My husband is still home because I can't cope! That's how hopeless I am with babies.

But in all that I remind myself everyday that it is the simplest job if I just listen to him: baby cries ~~ fill the need. Even if that need is just to have an angry, sobbing vent on mama's shoulder for a while. I'm nothing if I'm not a good listener.

All this is just for info's sake, btw. I won't judge myself, and I don't judge any of you. But I believe in full disclosure, and that we all deserve to know both sides of a coin.

Steph, drooling and fist sucking – that’s normal at this age. Ci is the same. They are learning to self soothe! Woot! It’s a great developmental step for them, and for you because if they can self soothe, your job is lessened. It’s what most of this first three months is about for them, learning to self soothe. Enjoy! And help her find her fist to suck. Some babies suck their thumb in the womb, and they are almost always great sleepers and very calm when born. The rest of them have to learn that skill. If you stroke the side of a newborn’s mouth, he will raise his hand to his mouth. If you press the palm of their hand, they will turn their head towards that side. Self-soothing is an inbuilt thing for them that they are born with, all the triggers are there for them to learn to do it.

Also, self-soothing comes in the form of breaking eye contact with someone or a stimulus. When over stimulated, self-soothing babies turn away to “regroup”, but the young ones just get bombarded and end up crying (when we step in to again be the soother). All things eventually develop to wean them from needing us body and soul, (but in their time, not ours. We can’t make that happen). But in case it happens to actually be a tooth, keep a finger probing inside there for any buds. It is a bit early but a small minority teethe early.

[Fire]

I forgot to add this analogy that helps explain what is wrong with sleep training and CC etc. And probably could have saved me lots of typing up there.

The Circus Elephant

To train an elephant to stay and not trample the whole shebang, she is tethered to something very strong by heavy duty cable she cannot break that is covered in barbs so any attempt to leave is painful and futile. She tries and tries valiantly but learns it is pointless, no one is coming, and she ain't going. After a time, the cable is exchanged for flimsy rope. The elephant stays put even though a mere breath of his strength could break that rope because he has "learned" tethered = futility.

Learning to sleep through the night when one's age is counted in months not years can be "trained". None of us APers can deny "it works". But if a baby's pleading gallant efforts are ignored over and over by the parent to the child's only communication system, at what cost does this system "work"?

Are we teaching solid lifelong sleep habits or are we teaching futility?

[Zennie]

Fire - i agree that we are living with stone age babies and think i would feel lost with out spending so much time with him. i do put him down when we eat dinner to play or a 5min task. but would never let him get hysterical ( though sometimes like last night it happenss and i put my dinnner down and sat with him as he was getting tired 9pm. none the less 1/2 hour later he was asleep with out feeding and still slept 6 hours and it was 11pm before dp woke me and took russell to bed and i finished my dinner) i will often not put russell down while he sleeps because i enjoy it and so dose he.

Grubi - As for teething it dose vary widely friend f mines 1yr old has 12 teeth and got his 1st at 5 months. and for contact, i am goingt ogive it for aslong as he needs it. as Fire said

' if I pick him up, is he happier; if I put him down, is he happier? '

Steph - Russell also sucks on his fist when he wakes up or is on his tummy. he used to cry when put down on his tummy but since found his fist hes happy to stay that way for a little while. I drive and live near PT aswell so i can get to you no problem. are you going to the baby expo this weekend. you can print off free tickets on their website.

Anyone elses babies starting to get interested in differnt tastes , russellis into apples and potatos atm.

we are doing , DP is looking after Russell for 2 hours 2 nights aweek so i can play squash and get fit. yay and russell has slept 6-8 hours all week so feeling good.

[Fire]

Kira, how do you know when he likes something? i've blindly not noticed and am interested...

(do you mean in your milk?)

[Zennie]

Fire - Russell sits with us at the dinner table and i just offered him a little mashed potato on my finger and he sucked it off and smiled so i offered him some more and he ate it, so know when i make mash, ill give him a bit and he eats it. if he dosnt like something(like his dummy, which he flat out refuses now for my little pinky finger), he just spits it out and pulls a face at me.

With the apples , i will cut off a chunk and he sucks on it, when hes had enough , he starts spitting it out. though sometimes he spits it 'cos there is no juice left and will suck again when you offer a fresh section. he also likes fruit smoothies(bannana, raspberry and blue berry) and will down it aslong as your offering it.

He appears happy and is interested in textures and tastes so i am allowing him to experiment ect even though they reckon that 4-6months is when you should start that kinda stuff. i read an article that suggested that babies who are Exclusivly breastfed will be receptive to the foods that the mother consumed and i eat all of the above regluarly and he thouroughly enjoys it so am not going to stop eating or offering. I do avoid the obvious like peanuts and strawberries though for saftey sake and if it makes for a non fussy baby then why not.

HE smiles like the pic in my ticker when he likes something

[alittlegrubi]

Fire/Janine: I know you are passionate about AP approaches and don't take offence to your post, but I am open to trying just about anything at least once if it works for me I'll keep going. I posted the information on the huggies site for information, some people swear by these methods. I personally can not do it, don't have the tolerance, but it might work for some people. My Mum suggested going to one of those sleep clinics, but I can't even do that, allow someone else to help me get them settled. But this constant hold is killing my upper back.
My little girl is so sick at the moment the only time she is not being held is when she is in the car or manages to fall asleep on the drive, I don't take her out of the capsule until she wakes. I'm getting next to nothing done as I can't manage the sling or the carrier.
I actually asked about the contact thing as my 2 year and 10 month old cries if I won't sleep in the bed with him and at the moment it is hard as DD is power chucking at night so I don't want to have to wake him to change sheets. Like you said DD (baby) comes first as DS has some self soothing ability. Was wondering if it was to continue for years yet as DH keeps saying he wants his wife back.
I'm not doing the best in terms of coping either - to the point that DH and I have agreed that we will NOT be having any more children.

[Nettie]

Latest progressive update: Liam is now 4.82 kgs but hasn't grown in length this week. He's now reaching for things deliberately with his hands (toys, us, etc) which is super-cute!

DH just bought me Pinky McKay's book " 100 ways to calm the crying" which I'm beginning to read. Don't have much experience yet on parenting methods so I can't really comment on the topic at hand! I do have a question though : what's AP?? Probably asked that before, but I've forgotten - sorry!

Zennie - I'd be careful with hard foods such as apple that a bit doesn't break off in his mouth. It could be a choking hazard. Just my opinion!

[Sequoia]

Had Baxter weighed today, only put on 70gms for the week, his weight is now 4.515kgs.

Have an appt with my lactation consultant and his paed next Tuesday. He feeds for 5 minutes at the most at the boob.

Not stressed since he is reaching all his developmental milestones.

Just thought I would update.

Sorry for no personals, little man yelling for me!

SG
xo

[BabyWrangler]

NO offence to anyone in the medical profession but bloody hell Dr's and nurses can be a pain in the bum!
BJ's sleeping is a bit spacko at the moment, I think mainly due to the fact that when he was in hospital he was woken every hour or 2 to have his vitals checked.
During the day now he's fine, but at night, he's awake a bit, and taking a bit to settle.
We'll get there, but its frustrating....Also attempting to get him to settle without his dummy as that too is a problem...sound asleep his mouth always falls open, and if it happens at the wrong time, he wakes up and has a spack attack trying to find it!
Due to dummy returns it can take a good hour to get him down at night!

Oh well...nevermind! He's still gorgeous and we'll get there!
Mother's group today, missed last week cause he was sick.

[Fire]

AP = attachment parenting. I don't really like the title, just as I don't like the term "cosleeping" as they make the oldest and still most common method of childrearing in the world sound like a fad. But it works for now.

Grubi, gotcha, and *hug*. No more kids here either. What slings/carriers have you tried? I couldn't do it without a sling, no way. I can barely do it with one, hence why I've had to transition him to the cot for one or two naps a day. My back is a train wreck. I still can’t get much done though as he only leaves me one hand free cos he turtles out of the HaB. I prefer the ergo but he isn’t quite ready for it yet.

Could you leave the sheets pukey? Put a towel down? I sympathise, it sounds tough where you're at. I just survived DD's chicken pox and it was a REAL juggle. I think you're doing a great job, make sure you look after yourself. Would your son stay in the same room as you are settling your daughter as a compromise if taking her in to him is no good?

I laid down with DD to fall asleep until she was less than 3. From then I just did story time and a long cuddle but was out of there by 7.30/8pm and she was fine. She would have been fine earlier really, but i was being as AP as i could be to make up for past "failings". I just recently got DH to take Ci at her bedtime so I can lay with her again. She doesn't "need" it, but I really miss it. It's amazing what you take for granted when you have to do it. Well, I was warned to enjoy this stage cos they grow so fast and then they'll refuse to kiss you as you drop them off and you mourn the nights in the arms of a baby who needs you.

About your post on settling, I thought you posted it as an example of good CC or something, sorry about that. I went to settling school with DD 6 years ago. I had PND and was an absolute wreck (swore off kids back then too!) and was open to anything at the time. I totally came to regret it after I did some research. I had no one giving me other options though, it was all about CC and training at the time so I didn't know. That's why I give the info out now, just in case it's the first someone's heard of it. You can buy sleep trainers for a dime a dozen now, and I can learn how to get my little gumbi to shut up and sleep from pretty much anyone but getting ANY kinda hands on AP help is all but impossible. I finally found a doctor who never once questioned me about not vaxing and on my way out the door said, "I'm glad you are cosleeping. I can't say this too loud, if you catch my drift, but more parents should do it." and winked at me. I'll keep him. But still, it isn't practical advice on how to deal with a full family and stay attached to your baby.

I say, do what you need to do to keep yourself together. Don't wreck your body trying to fit some ideal. The ideal is there to keep this culture on the right track, but most of us don't live tribally or even comunally so it's a tough slog. I had to quit slinging for most of the time and I feel weird with the loss of it so gawd knows how unsettling it is for him. I actually sit in the hammock with him through some naps just to extend our contact, but I read a book and stay comfortable and can easily resettle him that way too. He goes into the cot drowsy but awake now which I did not expect at this early age, so I get decent naps out of him when he is in it. I've gone gently gently slowly slowly but it's working. Gotta compromise, I've got a daughter and a marriage to maintain.

ETA - this might be the last long post from me for a while. (breathe sigh of relief!) Just bored as I bounce Master Small Person here.

[alittlegrubi]

Fire

Gotta compromise, I've got a daughter and a marriage to maintain.

I hear you loud and clear!!
No time to type anything more just now as have to get everyone ready for their day, will try to get back later.
Oh and thanks for the kind words and

[sarah_dobbo2]

Grubi:Wyatt has settled into his own routine, now that we have tried CC. As stated previously I don't let him get worked up. He's is more of a grizle then crying. I was against it too. But had serious melt down last saturday and rung GF and she told me to give it a try. I wont hurt if it doesn't work. I had to do something, 'cos I was taking everything out on anyone else, esp my children. (sad to say) So i gave it ago. and it seems to be working

So this what we do, we get wrapped up nice and tight, have our boobie, sit him up over shoulder and get a burp out of him then to put him into bed awake/drunk boobie sleepish...

He will start to grizle for mum to come and get him 'cos he doesn't want to be in there. I'll let him grizle, for 1-2minute with baby montor on listening in. then go back in give him some more boobie, and back into bed and he drifts off. Oh, I leave the TV on during the day, so he hears the background noise.

Grubi, all you can do it try.

Fire: Wyatt loves his ergo, I have used it from when he was 5 days old. Have you got the infant instert?

cheers
sarah

[sarah_dobbo2]

Okay so Wyatt finally got his 8w needle. And he's gone to bed (6:30pm), he was falling sleep on his disa, so I took him in the hopes he would wake up, but no. So I wrapped him up and put him straight to bed. Not even a grizle from him. I am about to wake him up so he will sleep later on tonight. (7pm)

Did anyone else's baby just want to go for nap? Should I be worried. I mean he had his needles at 1:30pm so if he was going to have bad reaction he should on had it first half hour. But nothing yet, seems quite happy

Was not happy my Dr, who I love dearly 'cos he is younger (40ish) and english speaking was not there today. They made my appointment with some other Dr. If I could have gotten another appointment with my Dr this week I would have. But I couldn't get in until late next week, so I swallowed my annoance and got them done, even thought I could not understand a word he said to me.

Anyway he's waking up so I am off for the night, I hope all your babies are eating lots, sleeping lots as well.

Night

[BabyWrangler]

Hi Sarah,
Yeah BJ did that too with his 8w needles.
The Dr told me that the 8w ones could make them quite drowsy.
It was the night of his needle that he slept 12 hours straight

[Fire]

Sarah, reactions to those needles can happen much later than half an hour. I dunno where they get these time frames from, bloody doctors. Apparently doctors don't report 90% of reactions, plus they blame something else when kids get really sick, "Oh, it was a couple of days after the shots, couldn't have been them..." Your sleeping trials sound much more gentle than they initially did, btw. I hope you have continued success!

Crap night last night. Fed every hour after 2am. One good thing is that he had a huge 6.30pm feed and then went until 11.30! Five hours is the definition of "sleeping through the night" apparently so my kid slept through the night last night! I think he's having a growth spurt. He's eating for the nation.

[Beatrix]

oh man....

I need some sleep, having all 3 girls is really starting to drain me. Thank god its ExDH weekened and i am free of Teleah and Annika. I love them and all but i can only handle so much.

And to top it off I slept funny last night and now have pulled my shoulder muscle. Everytime i move im in pain and picking up MJ puts tears in my eyes

and now she is crying............

[alittlegrubi]

Beatrix. I feel for you, doing it alone with just a baby would be hard enough, but with 3. Is there any chance ExDH can take them for a bit longer to give you a break during these first few months?
In relation to my marriage ATM I know that I am shutting out my DH. I could blame him for the way he is of late - we call him the shellfish ATM - but a lot of the reason why he is doing his own thing more often is probably because when he majes the effort I either growl or shun him - which is making things a little difficult for us. Thankfully he knows that it is largely my reaction to being a new Mum again.
I can't talk to him about how I feel because I think it will come out all wrong, I can't explain it to anyone, not that I have anyone to talk to besides my Mum anyway.
I know I need to start focusing on the positives, but I'm so down on our relationship that it is a battle.
On the up side DD and DS are good.
Sarah They say the reaction is in the first 24 hours, but I'd agree with Fire it could happen anytime, they have just been given an illness, the body has to fight it. When you are sick you sleep more don't you. Watch for fever that is the main thing that will indicate a reaction.

[bellelass]

Sg- it was a "just in case" top up while she was learning how to finish a breast. It gets harder to suck towards the end. I don't do that much now, though I do express for the "end of the night" feed still since she's super lazy and tired and grizzly by then. Sounds like your little man will have a nice growth spurt soon, you're right not to sweat it as long as he's hitting milestones. I feel like such a bad mummy (not really), I have no idea what they are and when. I just kind of generally judge by how everyone else's baby is going on here. Does he ever stay on longer than 5 minutes? Is it 5 minutes at a time or is it 5 minutes and then that's it no more boobie? Does he feed often?

Kira- I'd love to meet up/ go to group if you're sure you wouldn't mind driving. Not going to the expo this weekend, we have an Indian wedding on Saturday (Soooooooo excited, good food and good friends and heaps of traditional-style new mums and dancing and bright saris and such goooooood food and henna and did I mention the food?) and a friend coming up from the coast on Sunday... If you'd like to meet somewhere maybe next week and we can each see that the other one is normal and not an ax-wielding maniac then let me know. Maybe tues or wed?? I give Lila tastes of things, too. She really loves sucking on apple wedges. I tried a bit of banana the other day and she liked that, too but I was scared she'd gum off a piece and choke so it didn't last long. I even give her tastes of sauces like pizza and hoisin. I just try to keep the salt to minimum and don't give her anything that will burn her mouth. Dh and I eat a lot of hot chilies. Do you think it goes into my milk?

Janine- Wow that's a lot of info. I like your story about the elephant, that's pretty much exactly why I do what I do with Lila. That said, lately she's been waking around 6am and kind of snuffles/grizzles and I let her and she puts herself back to sleep for a few hours. I kind of feel bad, but I think it works ok. And if she was really upset I'd go to her in a flash. Woohoo on Ci sleeping "through the night," may he continue to do so, and do it actually at night time. hehe. I really really really wish we still lived in tribes or even in nice tight communities. I must say though I have more "community" type support here than I would back home. For example, I'm friends with my neighbors, several of whom have small children and we kind of help each other out. And I'm lucky enough to have some very lovely and hands-on in laws who help out heaps... But still..

Grubi- Sounds like you're having a rough time. My husband gets all sad and needy for attention too, and asks where his wife went. There have been heaps of times when all I wanted to do was collapse into bed and sleep but he's wanted attention so I cuddle him and listen to him and tell him things. He appreciates the effort even if I'm not 100% and he does stuff for me... Like taking Lila for a few hours so I can nap, or making dinners or housework or whatever. So we end up with the opposite of a vicious cycle going. I just hate it when I feel like we don't spend time together... Anyway I only have one kid but that's how we do things and it works. Just keep telling yourself it won't always be this way.

Beatrix- I can't imagine how hard things are for you, you're doing such a good job taking care of your girls and keeping going despite everything else. I hope you get a little help soon.

Nettie- Lila is reaching for things, too. Like daddy's nose. Etc. Its adorable...

I went to visit SIL and her new baby the other day. I'm still shocked. She weighs about 30 grams more than mine did at birth, but she seems so teeny tiny to me. Lila seems MASSIVE and so grown up next to her. I even felt weird holding my niece, like I would break her or something. Hah. It really struck me how much Lila's grown and developed in the past few months. And I felt like such a veteran new mom, if such a thing exists. I guess it just really boosted my confidence over all because I could see exactly how far we've come. I mean, wow, Lila even goes onto the breast with proper attachment and no dramas now.

She's getting to be so sweet and cute and good. Such a good girl. I was so worried I'd lose the plot with a little baby that I didn't want to have, but she's become such a source of happiness for me. I love getting up with her in the morning and having a cuddle, and cleaning her fat, pink little body and talking to her and listening to her little gurgles. I'm really starting to enjoy her, and a mad part of me wants her to always be this little. At the same time I am looking forward to her being big.

I guess it helps that she's generally settled into a good routine... though last week it was disturbed for some unfathomable reason and I thought I would die... up around 7-8am, change and cuddle and big feed. I express the milk she doesn't have for breakfast and make my own breakfast and some coffee. Then she wants another feed, and I shower and put her in the sling. Usually cook and do housework for a few hours and have lunch etc before I take her off for afternoon feed. then she plays with daddy for a little while, sometimes I sling her again for some more chores. Then from about 5pm to 10-11pm she feeds full stop. I've tried consolidating feeds but nothing doing. Its almost solidly feeding during that time and has been for weeks and weeks. Then she goes to sleep til the next morning. I find I can deal with anything as long as I've had enough sleep, if I haven't I am stroppy and angry and upset.

For the rest of it, I just do what I am capable of doing and don't let myself worry about what I can't get to. I have found that if I try to hurry Lila along or do something "on schedule" (feeds, cuddles, changes, anything) she gets upset and I get upset and its no good. I just try to take her as she comes. So my laundry sits out on the line for a night or two, or the dishes sit in the sink overnight or the rubbish bin overflows sometimes... It is getting easier though.