to circumsize or not to circumsize?

[~Jo~]

For me one doesnt rule out the other.

Jo

[Rouge]

Jo I can see where you are coming from however your most recent comment can easily be taken the wrong way. I know you wouldn't be implying that people who chose to circ their boys are similar to those who neglect and abuse children but I think that last comment could easily be taken that way.

Please everyone this is a touchy discussion chose your words with caution, and if you can't respect others POV then please don't post in this topic.

This discussion will not be closed, as it is helpful to parents. However, inflammatory posts will be edited or removed.

*mod hat off*

Brooke I couldn't agree with you more hon!

*hugs*
Cailin

[~Jo~]

Cailin..my comment was meant to be in regards to for me being sad about circumcising and children who are abused etc...not that because I am sad about circumcising I am not sad about other sad things in the world...therefore one not ruling out the other..just wanted to add that in case anyone else thought it was meant how you had interpreted it.

Jo

[Rouge]

Nononono I was just saying I didn't want anyone to interpret it that way

*hugs*
Cailin

[Phteven]

I'm just wondering if anyone else read the New Scientist article on circumcision last month. After I read it I was quite glad that my boys are circumcised. In a large scale trial in Africa they circumcised adult men and the differance in the incidence of STDs (not just HIV) between the guys who were done and the guys who weren't done was so high that they halted the trial to allow the uncirced guys to get done if they wanted. A trial in NZ has had similar findings and in the light of thses studies the American College of Medicine is currently reviewing its recomendations regarding circumcision. Of course safe sex and monogomy are better preventatives of STDs than circumcision but even so if the incidence of infection is so much higher in uncircumcised men I can't help but to feel glad that my boys have a little bit of an extra safety margin IYKWIM.
Caro, the WHO isn't opting for it to be mandatory (which would be impossible to enforce anyway) just encouraged. The scale of the AIDS epidemic is such that anything that might reduce it is worth a shot. They also co-ordinate safe sex educational programs.
If anyone would like to read the article I could probably manage to scan it for you (but it may take me a while )

[Phteven]

Shannon, it's the 25th Nov 2006 edition. Its on the website but its a subscription only article.

[Pandora]

Milo is not done becuase I felt the risks associated with the procedure, and possible infection outweighed the chance of infection later in life requireing it to be done.

However, I can see how other people would want to have this done, and its up to them.

Jillian, particulary in your case I can't believe anyone would object, especially family!

[Rouge]

I guess thats just it some people don't see it as unnecessary Otherwise they wouldn't do it. This is another one of those discussions which is always going to get people who believe strongly and those who don't. And thats ok but *please* remember everyone is entitled to their own opinions and decisions... We all don't have to agree

*hugs*
Cailin

[Rouge]

Ok this is why I HATE these topics, because its sooo easy to misunderstand what someone is saying...

Please guys take a step back and as I know you both somewhat well I know neither of you would want to attack or upset anyone its just one of those things where the internet causes things to get crossed. Like the comment Jo made, I knew she didn't mean it the way it could have been taken. Please think about this before posting... and don't post in anger... as you will only regret this later!

C'mon girls we're all friends and mothers who love our children and we can *try* to discuss this without hostility towards each other.

*hugs*
Cailin

[Rouge]

No true, but the question you asked could easily be perceived as you saying (And I know you didn't say this I'm just using it as an example) that if you do choose to circ your choosing to hurt your child unnecessarily and you want to cause them unnecessary pain. Now I KNOW you didn't mean it that way but can you see how it can be perceived that way. Words suck... we need more than just emoticons, tone and body language are SOOOOO important and that is why these things happen.

*hugs*
Cailin

[Jodie259]

unfortunately all our kids will suffer some sort of pain throughout their childhood.
They will fall over constantly. They will have their innoculations....

does a 'comfort' mother not innoculate her child because the injection will hurt? And if you do not innoculate your child - then that's fine. I would never tell a mother the evils of not innoculating. Because it's their child. Their choice.

Mothers circumcise their boys for various reasons... and they never do it to purely "inflict unneccessary pain" on their child.

For whatever reason a mother does it - it is their child, their choice.

Caro... don't get upset. Yes, this forum is a 'gentle' forum... but even Kelly said she considered circumcision. I think some of the 'gentle' people are starting to refrain from commenting if they don't endorse it... to save the conflict... particularly when it is posted in the 'general' section and not the 'comfort/gentle' section. If you don't believe in certain methods - that is fine. You are welcome to that opinion. But as much as we respect you - mothers who circumcise their children should also be respected.

[Rouge]

LOL Caro ya dag!

Yes you do need more smilies Smiles are good...

ETA: And thank you all for understanding where I was coming from. I know I can be such a PITA sometimes trying to keep the peace all the time. But I know what its like to be misunderstood, or better yet to misunderstand... and I hate to see others go through that!

*hugs*
Cailin

[Jodie259]

I'm happy if you're happy :wink:

spread the smiles. spread the love.

hugs to everyone

[Tracey]

Brooke, I listened to Triple JJJ & the mourning the foreskin programme & that sealed it for me that I'd not have the procedure done, plus it's actually not done in DH's religion which is also a blessing for me...

We visited my friend the other day & her new 5-6 wk old son & her newly arrived husband from Turkey, he is Muslim, she mentioned to me during her pregnancy (hubby was still in Turkey at the time) that she was afraid of having a boy & her hubby wanting his son cic'd....

I said she would have to discuss it now before baby is born so he knew her thoughts etc...

This is the last time we have spoken about it, I do not know if he has been done... Basically what I'm saying is I'd never ask coz it's rude (IMHO) & I dont really think she owes it to me or anyone else to discuss it, have to explain the decision the decided etc... It's just not warranted I love the little bugger, he is not my son & it's not my place to comment or pass jusdgement or opinion, if he is done or not I really dont care, he is still the same to me...

But for my son I know I ownt be having it done... I am certain she'll never question us either!!!

Mutual respect!!!

[hannanat]

Sorry but I really don't agree that any child who has this done is in no pain. I have read recent studies that have shown an infant who does not cry when the procedure is done is actually more likely to be in a state of shock and in withdrawl from such immense pain that they are physically unable to make a sound - rather than just being "fine". Also, many babies actually lapse into a momentary coma from the trauma - either from the procedure or when the anesthetic wears off

Sorry, but thats not the way it goes. I think a parents who have actually been through it with their babies are in more of a position to know how much trauma their baby went through. Jillian my experiences were very much like yours, hun. No worries at all - not "a state of shock" and definitely not a momentary lapse into a coma. Thats ridiculous. Honestly, I have had 4 boys done and if I thought that it was 'barbaric' I certainly would not have repeated it after the first time.

I can understand and respect parents decisions not to have their sons done - I would never, ever presume to tell someone how to make such a personal decision. I am quite sick of defending my parenting choices.

This is the last time we have spoken about it, I do not know if he has been done... Basically what I'm saying is I'd never ask coz it's rude (IMHO) & I dont really think she owes it to me or anyone else to discuss it, have to explain the decision the decided etc... It's just not warranted I love the little bugger, he is not my son & it's not my place to comment or pass jusdgement or opinion, if he is done or not I really dont care, he is still the same to me...

But for my son I know I ownt be having it done... I am certain she'll never question us either!!!

Mutual respect!!!

Right On Tracey!!!

[MantaRay]

Thank you Natalie. My thoughts exactly. I would never criticise anyone for not circing, but that statement regarding trauma is definitely not true. I have seen both my sons go through it and they were fine. As a mother I would know if they were distressed. And like Natalie, I would never have done it again if there was any doubt about my first son being fine. In both cases a lot of local anaesthetic cream was applied first so why would there be pain? And as for shock, the most distressing thing for my first son seemed to be having his nappy taken off! As I have mentioned previously, I know of boys who had to have it done later in life and I believe that is far more likely to cause trauma. To each his own, but I'd hate for anyone to mistakenly think that we have put our boys though pain, shock and trauma.

[ShootingStar]

You said everything i had in my mind Melainie.. couldnt have put it better myself!
Jesse was exactly the same. He had a local needle, cried having his nappy off and having the needle and then stopped. Was fine during the proceedure and sat in the waiting room talking his head off afterwards. He never from my observation, sufferred any trauma. He wasnt physically able to make a sound at all.
I mean if you search enough you can find studies that are pro both ways, i think it just depends on the author's opinion of which is best, so i think its just a personal decision for a parent to make on what they personally believe is best for their child.

[Tracey]

WOAH Natt your a hottie!!! hee hee nice AV..

Thanks, darl... It just really doesnt interest me if they got him done, she/they have never questioned us having the ceremonies for our kids, burying the placenta or belly button, nor will they question the other various balinese beliefs that we will do... Like tooth filing... Yep filing our teeth so they are all straight, it is a massive celebration in Bali, to have the incisor teeth filed flat align with others as they believe it is demon like & at the coming of age.. (I will getmine done with the kids) It is a very dangerous (Black magic) ceremony to perfoprm as they put you in a trance/coma like state to perform it... But it's part of life there & if someone told me it was a bad decision for myself & kids... I'd be pretty offended!

So come on all it's fine to say no I dont want it for my child, but lets not tell others they are poor parents for having made decisions & choices different to ours!!!

Lets recognise that the world is made up of many splendid things... If we all did things the same it's be a boring life (you'd all be copying me... HA HA HA!!!!)


HUGS & KISSES PPL!!!!