What do you do instead of smacking?

[Fig]

My DD has days - today being a good example, where she just pushes the boundries at everything and is completley defiant. Looks for all the things she knows she shouldnt' be doing and then when I say no she just smiles and does it anyway.

I do time out, but on days like today she won't stay and just thinks its a game. I explain to her very strongly that her behaviour is not acceptable. I even resorted to phoning DH and getting him to talk to her over the phone!! Surprisingly that worked for a little while, but probably just the shock value not something that will work all the time. I don't believe in smacking and think that when she is in a mood like this it would be completley useless anyway.

So what do you do? If you do time out, how do you get them to stay?

TIA

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

If I time out, I sit down and hold DS close to me while explaining why he can't go and play. It's a time to contemplate our actions. And I don't just tell him why his behaviour is bad. I make him explain to me. Why he did it. Is it allowed? Why does he think it isn't allowed? What will happen if ... results from him doing this? (Although his Nursery does just normal time out followed by an apology, so sometimes he just looks at me and says "I think I go sit there now I think. I in time out." Then apologises when he wants to play again and he thinks I won't talk to him about it any more!) I do give the answers when he doesn't know them, but he usually comes up with good reasons not to do "naughty" things so is less inclined to do them again later.

There's quite a few posts on this in the "smacking makes our children successful" thread, how to discipline without smacking.

[BellyBelly]

She's two and this sort of behaviour is common, especially with a new addition to the family. My daughter's behaviour went backwards when my son was born - she was harder than him! As they say, children who are not being 'lovely' are the ones needing more love.

The first thing I would do when I was angry was to take a deep breath and try not to act on impulse, it usually passes. If you can step away from the situation, let her know you're going to calm down and come back and talk about it so she also learns how to deal with her own anger also.

There are loads of PET (parent effectiveness training) articles in the parenting routines forum which also may help you a great deal, remembering she's going through a huge adjustment and some things take time. I'd recommend grabbing a copy of the PET book (which helps you deal with your childrens and your own problems better), Pinky McKay's book 'Toddler Tactics' or Margot Sunderland's 'What Every Parent Needs to Know.' These are all very gentle and effective books and will give you loads of strategies. Check out the Toddler Articles on the main site of BB too - lots by Pinky in the toddler & child section.

Remember.... this too will pass. I promise Also it's a good thing to remind ourselves that some of the behaviours we dislike (at times, or always LOL) in children are admired as adults, so try to see the good side to how she's expressing herself as she grows. This might be something like she knows what she wants, persistent, inquisitive, stands up for herself etc.

[skeetaboat]

I hold my son in time out. We just make it short - 30 seconds to 1 min - because we only just introduced it and he doesn't yet fully grasp the concept. Maybe you could try putting her in a boring (but safe) room if she wont stay in time out?

We use other consequences, 'if you hit the baby with that toy I'm going to take it off you and put it away' or 'you can play outside AFTER you put your pants on and brush you teeth'.

My toddler, similar age, does this sort of defiance thing too. It's usually coz he's tired, hungry, or needing attention. Usually a good dose of attention & a quiet day at home fixes him up. Hard sometimes when you've also got a baby to tend to, though. I've found devoting as much of the day as possible to doing activities together while taking breaks to tend to bubs works well.

[Fig]

Thanks for your respones.

Kelly I completley agree that some of her behaviours I find very challenging now are actually character traits that will do her well in the future - no less frustrating now though LOL.

My DH told me that when he was putting her to bed last night she asked for me and he told her I was feeding the baby. Her response was "No, mummy not feed Liam". So i think alot of her behaviour is a jealousy thing. DS has been feeding all the time latley. I do wear him in a sling but then she just gets jealous that he is on me.

Even though her actions are explainable it doesn't really make them acceptable. That is what I am struggling with. yesterday she hit the dog with a cup, and I told her that we don't hit the dogs and before I could stop her she was chasing the dog and trying to hit her again. Poor dog was trying to hide under the table. It didn't stop till I could lock the dogs outside. Today, she kept trying to hit the baby and eventually got him when I took my eyes off him for a second.

I do things like take toys off her, and even her 'blanky' when its a really naughty thing. But on days like the last couple she either just laughs or has a massive tantrum. Either way, the punishment has no effect.

I will go and read the articles Kelly suggested and re-read my toddler tactics book. See if I can find something!!

[Nettie]

We find that distraction works really well with our Liam

If he's trying to get to something we don't want him to touch, we distract him with something else. Usually he's just trying to get our attention anyway, so if we fully engage with him by playing with something, he will change what he's doing.

However it doesn't ALWAYS work and we aren't ALWAYS able to do this - but something that might help you sometimes.

note to self: get Toddler Tactics book.... hmmmm....

[Rouge]

Positive reinforcement. Consistency. Communication. Preemptive parenting. Not a smiley happy tone when enforcing boundaries, but not a screaming banshee one either. I have never been big on distractions as for me and people around me that used them it's never worked. It might work sometimes but eventually it doesn't as they realise what you are trying to do. That and it doesn't actually teach anything. And I personally wouldn't like to be distracted if I was doing a certain thing, to me I would feel insulted and I've seen little kids act in a way that to me says they are feeling the same way. But this is just my experiences. And we did use distraction as a tool when they were babies.

It's really hard to know exactly what I do/did every time. Examples are so important I know. But I do believe that our outcomes with parenting are due to the fact we are engaged parents not just when setting boundaries or dealing with certain behaviours but 24/7. I think that contributes to a lot. We have always been engaged in our children's lives from a young age. And I think that leads to a mutual respect so that when boundaries are set they do respect you and your reasons. Even now with my nearly 4 year old he will often tell me what the consequences of his actions are trying to teach him and how his actions affect others and how he would feel in reverse before I even have to say anything. And this helps him take responsibility for his actions and find solutions and replacement behaviours.

But I just want you to know this. There is NO quick fix. Smacking isn't a quick fix (although you may feel there is an instant response or feel satisfaction instantly), engaged parenting or gentle parenting or PET isn't a quick fix. All forms of parenting styles take time. And setting boundaries isn't something that you can just do buy saying No once and then they get it. It takes a LONG time for them to get it. And I think when you realise that your expectations lower and you don't stress out as much.

[widdly]

Thanks Rouge, that was a great post. I am at my wits end with DS atm, nothing seems to be improving his behaviour with me lately yet he is an angel for everyone else of course. I have managed not to yell or smack once today, I have raised my voice or anything, that is a bl@@dy miracle considering the way he has treated me today!!

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Maybe find acceptable outlets?

You could let her have a cushion to hit. Or maybe say you can see she has too much energy - how fast can she run around the garden? Time her. Ask if she can beat that time. Race with her - let her win too (at first at least). Wow, she beat Mummy! Looks like Mummy needs to practice more - want to go again? The speed toddlers run at over a distance, you can walk quickly with a sling on.

Time In is a big thing: do Time Out together when you talk about the feelings behind the behaviour and agree on what's not acceptable.

Agree that feeding her brother takes time away from "fun" things and you feel that pain too. But her brother has to be feed, he needs that. We can play later, but it's not fun when you're hungry, is it? When he's on solid food, would you like to help then? (I found with DS helping all of a sudden makes him happy and tidy and "pliable".)

Oh yes, and Nettie - just read your tagline. Your DH is right, I've been saying that for ages LMAO.

[skeetaboat]

I have found that smacking, yelling, being impatient, showing frustration, generally being gruff and unpleasant, being strict, etc, makes my toddlers behaviour worse. So does trying to 'discipline' his aggravation out of him. I find that naughty behaviour followed by discipline (eg time out) leads to a more frustrated, upset child, who is more likely to engage in more naughty behaviour.

I find that sitting down with my DS to talk about why he's doing what he's doing (eg hitting the dog), acknowledging the underlying source of the frustration and suggesting a better way to deal with that frustration, works better. Eg
'are you hitting the dog because you're angry that mummy is feeding the baby and not playing your puzzle with you?'
'yes'
'well I don't think that's a very good thing to do. It hurts the dog and it makes mummy upset. if you would like me to play your puzzle with you, you just need to ask me. If I'm feeding the baby I will say 'ok, I'll play the puzzle with you as soon as the baby is asleep'. When the baby is asleep you and me can play the puzzle. So if you want me to play puzzles with you, just ask me, don't hit the dog because that's not nice" (sometimes, if I can manage, I'll do both - feed the baby and play puzzle, coz I notice that DS is just making sure I care about his needs too, and showing him that I do takes care of his insecurity and makes him less likely to bother me mid-feeds). Of course if dog hitting behaviour continues, some discipline is needed, but I find talking through the feelings that are underlying the behaviour in a gentle and kind manner much more effective than skipping straight to the punishment/discipline.

I find that replacing thoughts of 'this behaviour isn't acceptable and I need to train it out of my child' with 'why is my child behaving this way and what is s/he really telling me that s/he needs right now?' can be really useful to help you think about alternative ways of handling the behaviour.

That's jsut what works for me, I don't know if that is univerally applicable. Hope it's helpful in some way though.

[Fig]

Skeetaboat: I think you are right, on bad days perhaps I need to back off the punishment altogether. The last couple of days DH has been home and I have got to spend some time playing with DD without her brother around. She has been an angle, so problem is a jealousy thing when its just the three of us at home. Can't do much about it at the moment with DS only having 3 catnaps a day which I have to either hold him or in sling and feeding at least every 2 hours sometimes more at the moment. I totally understand why she thinks DS takes up all her time - he does, but it won't be that long till it gets less intense, hopefully we will all survive

[*EJ*]

I some how manage without ever smacking also. My DS1 is almost 3 and even on bad days i could never imagine laying a hand on him. I'm yet to be in a situation where it may need to happen for his saftey. I use a lot of distraction, say things once and then try and pretend i'm concentrating on other things as a lot of the bad behaviour is for attention. We use time out but the last few times he has been refusing to stay there, i may try sitting with him during this time also. Lately he's screaming ALOT and a tantrum has been a daily occurance (we spent most of late last year without one at all). I think the definace comes and goes as they begin to test new boundries. I have the 3 books that BellyBelly mentioned and between them there are some great ideas

I know when my DS2 came along i did my best to include DS1 in everything we did. Make him feel a part of what was happening at the time, be it changing a bott, having a cuddle. I would always allow DS1 to touch/cuddle (within reason) his brother so he was not something to resent as taking attention away. Good luck i hope things settle for you.

[sunshine_sieben]

I haven't read all the replies. But I really feel for you. My DD is only a couple of months older than yours and I'm in the exact same boat. I really shouldn't complain. She is not an angry child, she doesn't bite, hit or intentionally destroy things. But she still has days with very challenging behaviour. I also don't feel like time-out is the most appropriate method to use. For me it is a last resort. Discussing things with her and asking her why she's doing what she's doing is pointless as her verbal development is a littlle on the slow side. She has very advanced motor skills, but verbally she is a bit behind (growing up in a billingual household doesn't help).

As I had a challenging morning with her I just re-read parts of "The Science of Parenting" and have had a bit of a re-evaluation fo both my attitude to her behaviour and my reactions to it.

Firstly, our children are still so very young that they lack the "control" we might have over our emotions and impulses. The brain is just not developed enough. I say might, because I find it really hard to control myself sometimes, so I need to understand that she might not be able to, either.
I do wonder whether those challenging days/moments are usually the times where she is in need of more stimulation. So I just vowed to take her to the park more often again. I used to take her almost every morning, but have been a little lazy lately. It's just more difficult when you have a bubba, too. Add to that being a WAHM and maybe I have neglected her needs a bit and this is her way of telling me... Not saying this is the case with you. But here it might be. She's so independent that I forget that she still needs a lot of interaction. We do have lots of cuddles and tickles and general tenderness, but she also needs the fun and learning.

Between her being so independent and having a baby, I do tend to forget how little she still is. I do at times expect too much from her. It doesn't help that I am surrounded by a few family members who use "obedience training" with their children. While I don't feel that this is appropriate, I have started to wish DD was "easier" like those kids. I had to re0think this and look at the bigger picture. While it might be easier, I much rather have my spirited child than to stifle her.

Yes, she can really get to me at times. But she's only 2 1/2. It is my job to re-direct her. Punishing her for something she finds impossible to control doesn't seem fair. I am hoping by giving her more outlet for all this energy (she has an extreme amount of energy), she might be a little less prone to push boundaries. After all, it is hard to do when you're completely exhausted.

Please don't feel like I'm sitting on a high horse. These are mainly reflections on my own parenting so far. I have made many mistakes in the past. I have also at times smacked my DD on the bottom. Once it was for running on the road (my dog was run over & killed by a car, so I literally lost it when DD woudln't stop when I called her) but on a couple of occasions it was just because she pushed my buttons too much. Sleep deprivation and stress had a lot to do with it, but it just wasn't fair on her. And on top of that, all that resulted from it was either a hysterically crying child (not because I hit so hard, but because of her feelings being hurt) or an even more defiant child. And I felt miserable, too.

Sorry for all the ramblings... Having said all of that, I do believe in picking your battles (sometimes it's just easier to remove the temptation) but I also do believe children need firm boundaries. Most days just setting the boundary is enough. On days where your kids are wanting to push them, I'm not quite sure how to enforce them either...

Alex

[sunshine_sieben]

I just read the other posts and they are all fantastic.
I do agree withtrying to involve the older sibling as much as possible with the care for the younger sibling. IF she is interested. My DD loves babying her little brother. It gives her something to do and no chance to misbehave. I let her dry his bottom after a nappy change, get a tissue (or 10) when he has vomited, put cream on him after a bath, wash his belly in the bath (they usually bath together), give him a drink from his sippycup when I'm feeding him his solids. When I BF him, I let her sit next to us and cuddle and we talk about his toes, try counting them, belly button, whatever. She adores him, which helps. Or we play a game were we take turns and try and make him laugh by pulling funny faces, making silly sounds etc. She is so proud when she can make him giggle. And she gets LOTS of praise for every lovely interaction she has with him.

Just because your first child acts up, it does not necessarily mean it is jealousy. It might simply be boredom. Boredom can be almost painful for a young child.

Alex
xx

[Smoke Jaguar]

Upping the ante around here is counterproductive.
'Consequences' that aren't actually consequences, but punitive measures that bear no real logical connection to the undesired action/s are also just wastes of energy and do nothing to address the reasons for the behaviour. In fact, punitive measures like smacking and 'negative reinforcement' (such a misused term) etc do more to drive the child's attention back on themselves and NOT thinking of their effect on others.
DP sent DS out of the house the other day when he was being rough with his little cousin (but not intentionally hurting him). I think it was supposed to make DP feel better, but it didn't, and DS certainly was not thinking about the welfare of his little cousin by the time he got outside - he was thinking about his banishment and how he was feeling rather than how his cousin was feeling!
I use logical consequences. If he has the volume up too loud on a DVD I tell him he can either turn it down or I will, he can take the dog off the leash or I will etc. He wants agency and I'm willing to give it to him where safe and practicable. I choose my battles, mostly, when my defensews aren't down and I haven't been neglecting my own needs as a human!
Smacking just isn't in my toolbox and never will be.

[Fig]

Well I have finally had some real success with my DD. After trying everything I am now doing a kind of 'time in' thing with her. If she is doing something she is not suppose to, I take her to her bedroom, sit with her and talk to her about why she is not suppose to do it and her feelings about what made her do it. Something like: Were you upset that mummy was cuddling your brother, is that why you threw the toy'. She would say yes, I tell her its ok to feel upset but its not ok to throw things, if she wants a cuddle as well to ask me. Then we have a cuddle, a walk out of the room together. Taking her to the bedroom makes her focus on what I am saying and the one on one makes her feel better.

It hasn't fixed all behaviours, but I have had dramatic improvement in only a week. She trusts me now to listen to 'her side'. Its amazing. But it is something a fight with. Having been raised myself by the do it because I said so style, sometimes I have to really remind myself that, that is not how I will parent.

Hopefully this will continue to work, and her trust in me to do the right thing by her will get even stronger.

[sunshine_sieben]

Fig, I do that, too. Just that i find that the discussion about her feelings is a bit pointless. When she's in that sort of mood she'll either say yes or no - depending on her mood - no matter what thhe question I ask. I could ask "do you have a foot for a nose and she'd howl "yeeeeessss". But my DD is a little slow on the language development. It is a little frustrating, as she is advanced in her motor development and the pig-headedness of a 4 or 5 year old, but I can't use the tools I would use with a 2 1/2 or 3 year old.

But I agree that this method is a good one. First of all, it stops the unwanted behaviour by removing her from the situation. It also gives an immediate consequence, which is important.

I have a question: How do you stop your children from running away from you. My DD has done that at the park a few times (although she does it s lot less now). It is hard to chase after her (she is so bloody fast) with a baby in your arms. She thinks it is a game. But it scares me to death. My dog was killed by a car and that was difficult enough to go through.
When she does it, it is often when we are about to go home anyway, so saying we'll go home if she does that is not really working.

[Fig]

Sunshine: two things about the feelings. My DD is only saying yes and no to these questions but I am sure she understands a lot more than she can say. So I am really guessing where the issue is coming from i.e. sad because her brother is getting attention, angry because he has a toy she wants etc. So I am trying to help her understand what the feelings she is and perhaps a better way to deal with them. I also book the series of books 'When I'm feeling' by Trace Morony. They have angry, sad, kind, happy etc and she is really starting to understand feelings now. I herd her yell at her dad the other day 'I am ANGRY'.

I was trying to think how I did stop my DD from doing that because she was really bad with this about 3 months ago. I don't know what it is that has stopped her but she is not nearly as bad. Maybe, she just grew out of it. I also don't think I go alone to many places with just the three of us that she isn't strapped into something. Like she goes in the pram when I go to the mall or in the trolley when I am shopping and baby is in a sling. Yesterday I took her to the park, just the three of us, but because my DS is in the pram she wants to be there too, so she really didn't wander very far.

I hope your DD gets out of the stage soon. I agree its really scary, they can move so quick sometimes.