Family structures and annoying comments

[peanutter]

This has been on my mind for a few days now, and I just need to ventilate it a bit ...

I was at a work function the other day, one where students and grads in our industry come, and make connections with practitioners. I met several students, grads and colleagues, and was having a good time.

One young woman I was speaking with (a student, early 20s) was surprised that I had kids – no drama, I look younger than I am, and it’s pretty common in my field for people to have their family a little later than average. So I confirmed that yes, I have two sons.

Then she asked, “Is it really hard to have kids, and be a lawyer?”

That’s a pretty loaded question, and it was clear that she was expecting me to say “yes”. I say it’s a loaded question, because it’s well known in our industry (and particularly in my area of specialisation) that part time work is almost non existent, hours are long, travel is frequent, and it’s pretty full on in general, in terms of stress and workload. There are other areas of specialisation which lend themselves to more flexible arrangements, less travel, less conferences, and something closer to a “9 til 5” balance, but my area just doesn’t. I’m fine with that, and I went in with eyes wide open. And ultimately, if I wasn’t happy, I would do something else. But yeah, loaded question, because it was asking about the compatability of work and parenthood, which can be a controversial topic.

Also, it very very clear from her demeanour she was expecting me to say “yes”, so the next part of the conversation (whether it was about inflexibility, or how to make it work better, or glass ceilings, or something else) could progress.

This in itself isn’t a problem – I think it’s good and appropriate for people to ask others in their desired field about how they make it work, what they have found that works well, what does not, what strategies do you use, what is the good, the bad and the ugly of the industry, etc. It’s important to be able to ask people these questions, and I’m happy to talk about these things – especially as I valued people speaking to me about them, when I was studying, and looking towards the future.

In any event, my answer (which I’ve given dozens of times in response to questions around this concept of kids+work) was, “No, my husband is an at home parent, and that works really well for us.” because she clearly was asking about the home / work balance, the school pick ups, the bedtime story, etc – and my answer shifts the focus from “mother” to “primary caregiver” and usually is in and of itself enough to explain how our household manages to run.

She looked mildly surprised – again, nothing new there, as while there’s an increasing number of at home dads, it’s still far from the norm. I did find it a little unusual though that someone her age was having this reaction, as I generally find that younger people are much more aware of the growing number of SAHDs and respond quite positively.

She quite quickly pressed on though, saying, “Yes, but if he wasn’t prepared to do that, wouldn’t it be really hard to have kids and be a lawyer?”

And that was the kicker.

I was really taken aback by her response. “If he wasn’t prepared to do that” – what does that mean? If a father wasn’t prepared to look after his kids ... que? As though the dad may just turn around one fine morning and say, “screw this malarkey, I’m heading off back to work” – and that may instantly mean that the mum just has to change or quit her job, because the father has the absoute right to unilaterally decide what both parent are or aren’t going to do, and the unquestionable ability to dictate what the child rearing structure will be. And as though the mother simply has to do whatever (out of working outside the home, or being a stay at home mum) the dad doesn’t want to do?

On what planet is that just a unilateral decision the father would get to make – especially if it would mean the mum / co-parent would have to drastically change their career / life / the family’s financial situation? Last time I checked, it’s pretty standard (in Australia, in 2014) for those things to be a conversation between two adults, and not a dictation by one.

And in this particular conversation that I was having, why on earth would she think that this wasn’t something which was considered at length before any delightful cherubs actually arrived?

The whole attitude had me really surprised.

Now for us, DH had wanted to be a parent and an at home parent for some time before we started a family. I too wanted to be a parent – but not an at home parent. I wanted to have a career. I have wanted to be a lawyer for almost as long as I’ve wanted to be a mother. And my DH not only supports, but actively encourages this – and has done since we got together in high school, before I even got into law school, let alone completing uni and joining the workforce. DH wants to return to the workforce one day – but not until the boys are well and truly settled into primary school, and even then, he wants a job where he can be with them during the holidays, and if possible, where we’re not reliant to before and after school care. And I 100% support this.

Now, if he turned around one day (or if he had done so, prior to now) and said for whatever reason that he wanted to go back to work – we’d discuss our options as a family. We’d talk about what he wanted – part time, full time, self employed, etc. We’d talk about care options (daycare, family day care, nannying, sharing between ourselves, etc) and we’d figure something out that worked for us. Like what I’m guessing any of you reading would do, if that was your situation.

But the conversation sure wouldn’t be:

DH: “Honey, I want to go back to work.”
PN: “That’s a-ok. Let me check what my notice period is, and I shall resign immediately.”
Or: “Okey dokey, am I allowed to work part time, or maybe by remote access a little?”
Or: “No problemmo, I will see if I can get an inhouse job locally, and would you like your pipe and newspaper now, or later, by the fire after my hair are in rollers?”

Nor would it be:

DH: “Honey, I want to go back to work.”
PN: “Too bad so sad, I have a career and so you must stay at home with the boys until they are 25 and living in their own homes, no more dreams for you!”

We would talk about it! In an open honest and respectful way, and we would decide what works best for us as a family. DH would no more expect/demand/assume that I would change my career, than I would expect to dictate what he does or doesn’t do at work or at home.

So after taking a pause, and considering my approach, I responded, saying that having a kids is a two person decision, and deciding how they will best be brought up is also a two person decision – and so if my DH didn’t want to be an at home parent any more, then he and I would discuss our options together, and come up with a decision together.

She looked a bit confused.

So I said, “When a couple have a child, the mother being the carer is not a given or a default position. Caring for kids, looking after the home, and bringing in income are all joint responsibilities.”

She then said no, no, that’s not what she was saying, just wouldn’t it be hard being a lawyer with kids, etc ... and then she changed the subject, and I just let it drop.

But I was pretty surprised, and a bit disappointed that this young woman, on a great career trajectory, one of the best and brightest in her class, in 2014 still apparently believed that we’re living in a world where a woman can decide whether or not to have kids, but if she does have kids, she better hope and pray that he partner is “ok” with her working (if she wants to do so) otherwise she’s going to have to choose between them.

I don’t see anyone going up to a guy, and saying, “Oh, you have kids, and a job? So who looks after them?” Or “Gee, your wife must be an awesome lady, if she’s ok with you being out at work all day.” Or, “A conference this weekend? Who have you organised to take care of your kids?” Or, “I heard you had a baby – congratulations! So how many days a week are you working, now?” Or, “Do you think you are really still up for the job, now that you have kids? I mean, how are you going to manage the long hours? What is one of them gets sick?”

Dudes. Having a career and a family is not “trying to have it both ways” or “having your cake and eating it too”. No one would go up to any working man out there with kids and say these things, would they? I doubt it very much. So why is it still the attitude I see?

Why are our young and rising women still thinking this?

It was just one reasonably short conversation (in a broader context - there was obviously more to it than just the above) but it is one in a plethora of other conversations, and I just don't see why the conversation is still so behind the times ...

How do we change it?

[HotI]

I see similar ish comments (online) regularly. Woman "Hubby won't let me buy that/do that". Too, too often there is belief that one person, usually the male, has greater say of what happens in the family and what the other person is "allowed" to do.

[peanutter]

Yes. And if there's any hint of it going the other way, then that's demeaning, and he's "whipped" or she's a "ball buster" or whatever.

I don't get it.

DH has been full time at home for years now, but I wouldn't dream of suggesting that meant that I controlled the finances, or dictated what he did ... we have a family budget - but again, that's something we've agreed upon. That would be like him saying that he's been the primary carer for years, and so he's going to solely pick their activities and their school, or whatever.

It's *our* money. And *we* are the parents. Partnership.

[Teeki]

Ugh, I hate these comments, I hear it all the time. Not necessarily comments about it being tough on me working full time with kids, because it is and it's not what I really want - I know there are mothers in your position PN, who have made a decision with their partner to work full time and it works for them. That's fantastic, but it's not what works for me so I guess when I hear that it must be tough on me, it doesn't get to me because I kind of agree, for my situation.
But, DH finishes work at 3, and we decided that even though overtime is readily available to him, we would prefer him to pick up the kids at 3 rather than wait for me to get them when I finish - could be 6pm some nights. Apparently, he's under my thumb, and he's soft. What kind of man would actively choose time with his children over earning more money, or going to the pub?! And doing it so his wife doesn't have to sacrifice her work hours? Nonsense, that must be one ball-breaking wife!

I hate that he gets these comments, rather than being told what a wonderful father and husband he is. (Although that's another thing altogether, he's not automatically Dad of the Year just because he does his share of parenting.)

[wysiwyg]

I think you have misinterpreted her (although I do think there are issues in society around gender roles) - she may have a current partner in mind who she already knows what his career aspirations are and that they wouldn't involve him taking up a primary caregiver role and she may be completely supportive of his career - so if you are in that situation if you know you want kids, then the issues you have outlined about your profession and having kids are very valid. When she said "Yes, but if he wasn't prepared to do that, wouldn't it be really hard to have kids and be a lawyer?" - I see her as actually asking if you are with someone and you get to the point of deciding whether to have kids or not if your partner wasn't prepared to take on the primary caregiver role (who knows what career they might have) and you were a lawyer - could it actually be managed? Would it actually be likely to lead to a joint decision not to have kids.

There are two people, two careers - is it possible for both to have a career - yes certainly, but it does somewhat depend on the careers of each party - not everything fits well together (or with peoples ideas about parenting). Maybe she doesn't have a partner at all - and who knows the career of the person she would end up with - if she already knows she definitely wants kids - then really she is just covering all bases about finding out what would be the implications if she ended up with someone who wasn't going to be primary caregiver (the other person might not even be a man). PN - you have been with your DH a long time, so have followed the path together - many people meet people much later in life with established careers, wanting to know how it might be if you ended up in partnership with someone who has an equally important view of their career to you - seems entirely sensible.

I really think she was asking a general question of "but what if your partner isn't prepared to be the primary caregiver" - as in at the point you are thinking about having kids - what then, what would that mean, would it be doable, what would be the implications?

Of course maybe she said more than you have written that really did suggest the "screw this malarkey, I’m heading off back to work” - man makes the unilateral decision angle.

[*Jessica*]

I don't have a great deal to add except that I think SAHDs are so underrated! And I also think that feminism has gone so mad it's doing a complete 360 in itself. I've just had a baby and probably make no sense but that's my two bobs worth!
Oh and I think what you are doing is awesome, as is your partner and wonderful family!

[MummyNaomi]

There is a complete double standard - my DH took 5 months off as SAHD for both kids when I went back to work and the comments he'd get were quite ludicrous, especially from the older generation (read in laws).
I hope you'll have MNs dinner on the table when she gets home - really? I never had his on the table. Just stupid gender stereotypical garbage

As for feminism gone mad, I disagree but there seems to be a femi-nazi movement calling themselves 'feminists' that are giving true feminists a bad name. My DH is a feminist - had sees his and my role in our family structure even and that we are jointly responsible for everything. He is even more passionate now that he has a daughter.

But I digress, I agree PN there is much judgement and stupid commentary on family structure. People really just need to mind their own beeswax!!!

[Floweryfields]

I interpreted her question as a 'what if' also. She was generally interested to know how she might in the future, possibly have children if her partner weren't willing to stay home (and lets face it many men aren't).

I didn't take it to be an archaic ideal of parenting or anything, but more genuine curiosity, but I was not there and couldn't interpret other things other than words - like body language, etc.
I guess you do need to take into account that the woman is still, for the most part, the primary caregiver in many cases. Perhaps not so much in the corporate world or the industry you are in, but in most of the circles I am in, they are and so I assume in many others they are also.

[peanutter]

She was single, no kids, and early 20s.

I completely get that my set up isn't the norm, but equally, it's hardly cause for shock.

Her demeanour and other comments said strongly to me that the comment about if DH didn't want to continue was in the vein of, "yes, but if you didn't have a magical unicorn with wings, then ..."

[~clover~]

I think that from the day they're born, little girls have dolls, prams, bottles, doll houses etc all thrown in their faces.

With out any conscious knowledge, they're being taught how to mother & have a home. They are girls. It's natural to assume that one day they'll be mothers who won't want to miss their child's precious moments. And none of us do want to miss out.

But some women don't want kids at all. Some don't want to get married. Some men would love to stay home & see all the little things their mates miss out on.

These things have been happening for a while now, but it's not really discussed. No one has made a big fuss about it. It just happens. And it's starting to happen more now that women are becoming more career oriented. I think our generation are the ones who've changed a lot of views on a lot of things. But the next generation are still learning from their parents.

One of my dads mates was a SAHD. 20 years ago. His wife is a RN. His youngest just completed his HSC. I'm sure I remember the boys joking about it, but they got used to it.

My brother supports his wife. She doesn't work often outside the home, but he gives up his Saturdays to watch her play netball, or have the kids home while she goes. And he's 'whipped'. They own a business together, they both have their roles there, and they both raise the kids. Together. But he's under the thumb.

People are learning. They're adjusting. It'll take a few generations yet. My parents are 49 and still quite stuck in the dark ages. (Same sex relationships are disgusting for starters. And that movement has been going on for a long time.)

Everyone was raised different. Everyone learns different things at different times. Maybe your reply will make her decide not to settle for less, and find someone willing to support her in her career. Maybe you've taught her something very valuable about how a relationship should be. Not how she wishes it could be.

Who knows.

[peanutter]

Wysiwyg: I've been thinking more about your comment:-

"I see her as actually asking if you are with someone and you get to the point of deciding whether to have kids or not if your partner wasn't prepared to take on the primary caregiver role (who knows what career they might have) and you were a lawyer - could it actually be managed? Would it actually be likely to lead to a joint decision not to have kids."

And I guess I never had to think about that - but yeah, if I had met my future partner later, in my 20s or 30s I guess the conversation could have been quite different.

Maybe she was more interested in the process of the discussion that lead to our outcome? Or what our decision would have been if DH and I had both wanted to work ...

[onthefly]

Just generally speaking, I think it's indicative of the underlying misogyny in our culture, which devalues 'women's work'. Ie, why would a man want to do that? it's why people get in a twist about lactation breaks, breastfeeding in public (do it in private, unless you're flashing your titties for someone's enjoyment!), the (non)rights of women in childbirth, and why men are often disadvantaged in the workplace if they try to take on a greater fathering role, or are even derided for it.

It's good to have potentially opened someone's eyes about alternate options. This is the way forward.

[Sagres]

While the general tone of the questions have obviously been biased by the idea of gender roles etc. underneath it I can see a pretty valid question. If two people meet and both have the same career focus (I assume pretty common with couples meeting at uni doing the same or similar study, or meeting at work, sharing similar values because that is part of what they are attracted to) and both have the concept of having children but not being the full time carer, how do you negotiate that? How does a couple navigate that decision and specifically how did YOU decide? I think curiosity about that process is not necessarily a bad thing for a student to show.

But as for you being lucky in regards to your partner being a SAHD, I think you are lucky or blessed, just as your partner is blessed to have a partner willing to be away from the kids and shoulder the money earning responsibility, just as I am blessed to have a husband that will do the money earning and missing out on some good kid stuff, and he is blessed to have a wife who is willing to run a business from home and also do most of the parenting and my friends are blessed that they both have partners willing to work part time and share kid/domestic duties. As long as a couple has an arrangement that they are happy with and works for them they are very lucky, because there are plenty of people (mostly women) who are forced into roles they don't want due to money or cultural norms or inflexible partners etc. who would love the freedom to negotiate and choose something that fulfills them.

[Dot Face]

It sounds like you were over thinking what she said. Her remarks/questions sound like something I'd say to someone in your position just out of curiosity. If I was a young aspiring lawyer like her, I'd ask anybody with kids who is a practicing lawyer how they handle it with or without the other parent staying at home.

She even said to you after you explained to her that a mother isn't the default parent that that wasn't what she meant, so it sounds like you dissected (and misinterpreted) her comments a bit too much .

I just want to say though that I think it's amazing that you're a lawyer and a mum of two boys, that's incredibly admirable. I constantly worry about how I'd balance studying and just one son if I go back to study post grad, and women like yourself make me feel more confident about it.

[Sagres]

I'm reading The Wife Drought by Annabel Crabb at the moment and it explores this kind of issue and the reason behind that question in-depth. I'm really enjoying it, anyone else reading it?

[wysiwyg]

I'm reading The Wife Drought by Annabel Crabb at the moment and it explores this kind of issue and the reason behind that question in-depth. I'm really enjoying it, anyone else reading it?

I have it on reserve a the library - I am now 2 of 40 so should get it soon. It sounds very interesting - although I did think in some of her interviews about the book it was a bit odd to then go on about how good she was at baking and making cookies for cake stalls - which although she may be I did think the fact she needed to mention it is due to some of the stereotypes that we should be trying to dismiss.

[~me~]

I would ask anyone not just a lawyer how they cope being a full time worker with kids. It's more out of curiosity how they do it, this comes from having a DH who worked ridiculous retail hours as we would have found it extremely difficult if we both worked full time.

My DH and I have just done a direct roll swap. I have gone back to work full time and he is a full time SAHD after many years as the main breadwinner. It has always been our plan to whoever can be the main breadwinner works and the other stays home.
I honestly think it's how we as the female project it to others. Yes that's a bit antiquated, to leave it the woman. That doesn't bother me one bit, my DH also proudly says he is now a SAHD.

I loudly and proudly say "my husband is a SAHD, if he wants to work, then it's his turn to go part time and work around kids and routines". My DH and I have discussed this by the way and agree.
I get looks like I have two heads, not to bother, I just soldier and keep going with all the positives.

So PN, just keep going and eventually everyone should catch on

[wysiwyg]

I'm reading The Wife Drought by Annabel Crabb at the moment and it explores this kind of issue and the reason behind that question in-depth. I'm really enjoying it, anyone else reading it?

Picked up from library yesterday, am a few chapters in, enjoying it so far, some very interesting statistics.