Flowerchild, thanks for the hug I've been pretty stern but still loving, and I think she's realised I'm not going to get in a tangle this time. (Thank God for my therapist!)

Ozzie, it sounds like you are really dealing with a difficult situation. It's so hard at their age, isn't it, you really have so little leverage over them. I think the hardest thing is to watch them take life's lumps, and not step in and try to make it right for them.

I also think some of the issues with dd2 (and probably with dd1 who left home earlier this year) are because I'm having another baby, and they are at adulthood, and it has confused some roles for them. I'm a very young mother compared to their friends - most of their friends' parents are well into their forties and fifties. I think that has "dominance" issues for them, iykwim.