Why is it we blame the community and not the people or better yet ourselves?

[Liz]

haha... love the floor boards idea. Or maybe tiles so we can hose this place out now & then? hahaha.

We all spill our coffee! I just think stains are a part of life. They show the carpet has had a family on them & they have a life. I think personally it is more helpful just to be grateful we have a room (BB) & not look so carefully at the stains - as we are all of us guilty of spilling coffee sometimes..

And there's always that person that insists on drinking coffee in the carpeted room LOL. Often in the wobbliest of teacups too. Delicate subjects are raised and then the teacup gets knocked right out of their hand!

The demographic has changed, and the orientation has changed.

Yeah I think that's what it is. It's that the audience is so much larger and wider now.

<--- I hate this emoticon LOL

LOL me too! What's with the new smilies? I don't like em <--much better than these -->

[PumpkinZulu]

I am glad BB makes people think.

I also understand some of what Maya expressed.

I have felt like that a bit lately too. This ethos of "making" others feel a certain way just puzzles me. I feel like a complete freak sometimes for speaking of my thoughts around birth because they go against the grain. When I didn't feel that way before recent times. I'm not sure if that's because things have changed or why its so. But I have felt that feeling I will agree with Maya there.

I agree. Nobody can 'make' you feel anything. Only you are responsible for how you feel, no one else. My favourite example of this is something I've learned from my Doula training; a woman walks into her OB's office all excited and tells him that she is planning a homebirth. The OB laughs at her and tells her that it's a bad idea, she'd be risking her and her baby's life. The woman goes home, disappointed, and tells her friend about it. "He just made me feel so stupid." she says. But the OB didn't make her feel anything, he only brought out the insecurity within the woman that she already had lurking there, and when she didn't get his approval of her choice, the OB 'made' her feel stupid. But, if the woman had gone into her appointment with the OB completely comfortable, informed and happy in her decision to homebirth, she would have heard the OB's opinion, and simply brushed it off as him being biased and uneducated in her decision, and would have left the appointment still completely comfortable and happy in her decision. So nobody can 'make' you feel anything, it's an insecurity within yourself.

[Rouge]

I totally agree with you on the teacup liz.

I guess like all other topics this just shows that everyone has their own perspective even when it comes to their own perspective and no one perspective is right. I gave up a little while ago trying to share my own point of view with people who prefer to challenge it rather than hear what I am trying to say and acknowledge it so now when i come across those types of situations I simply nod and move along. I like to discuss and share, but not to argue or debate. Even facts and figures can be undermined so I think sharing is more important than debate, but that's just me and maybe I'm not analysing enough... or maybe too much.

[Nelle]

Ahhh yes the guidelines! Good at guiding us on where to draw the line.

Should I be a teacher or something? "To assume means you make an ass out of you and me. Everyone turn to page 6. We can finish when Jones in the back stops talking. Everybody's waiting for you Jones." *taser taser*


Quite like the carpet analogy. Lots of room for fun and far reaching stories. Like...if the stain gets sun, then over time it'll fade. I assume we're working with light carpet here...if it's dark carpet, then, who cares what we spill?

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

I think the important question Nelle is - does the carpet match the curtains?

[maz]

im screwed then, seriously.....im in the loo for most of the time..no curtains for starter's....and are the stains in there from coffee?? or people missing the bowl???

[Traveller]

all my stains are from wine...I think that makes them easier to live with

[Liz]

LOL - yeah see, the fun stains are ok. The vomit & poo stains are what have to go LOL. We had our carpets cleaned a couple fo weeks ago and I don't miss these stains one little bit! In fact I made them worse trying to clean them myself. I just pushed them in deeper. Happy to leave it to the pros now.. just like I'm happy for the mods to do the housekeeping around here LOL

[misty]

PZ - you are very right.

I think it cuts both ways though.
I feel like I want to give specific examples, but I don't want anyone to think I am purposely targeting them. So I will try to give more general examples.

When women here want to celebrate their gorgeous, natural births, or their breastfeeding experiences, or their 'attachment' parenting and are told they are 'making' other people feel guilty, then that makes me sad Because BB was the place you could once come to in order to do just that

Celebrating something is great. If you are into gentle parenting or attachment parenting or homebirthing or whatever, that is fabulous. Share it with the community. However, don't expect everyone else to hold the same ideals or values. Don't make judgements against those who don't value or hold these things important. No-one is saying you cann't enjoy or believe these things, but you need to understand that as strongly as you feel for these, there are going to be others for feel just as strongly against. Likely if you are very passionate about your beliefs, then you are not going to understand why or how others could be well imformed and feel so strongly the oppersite - but that doesn't mean that it isn't the case.

There was a thread floating around where someone asked for help in regards to them 'wanting' a c-section. This person was IMO attacked and interogated for their desire to have one. This wasn't what she had posted the thread for. She had posted to ask for help to get what she wanted, not to be told that she 'shouldn't' want it. Unless she chooses to share her reasonings, it was no-one elses business 'why', and no-one elses place to convince her otherwise. If you didn't have information for her, then like my mum always said "If you have nothing good to say, then better to say nothing".

I know how many members here feel about circumsicion. But when I had (in the past) posted asking if anyone knew of any practicing doctors in my area who would perform one, that was all I was asking. I did not require, ask for or appreciate the numerous posts for everyone else voicing their 'concern's.

If anyone went onto a thread about how fabulous co-sleeping is, and started pushing their own agenda about how they think it is horrible because x,y,z - it would be equally unappeciated.

FWIW - I don't subscribe to any particular 'theory' about parenting or childbirth. Since when did parenting or childbirth require a theory? I parent how I 'feel'. I do alot of it by instinct. I do alot of things my parents did. I make it up as I go along. I sometimes pick things up off friends, family or BB. I have found different things work with each different child. I DO NOT believe there is a right way to do something. I have co-slept, I have had them sleep alone, I have cuddled to sleep, I have used CC (and I would again if it made sense to), I have bf, I have ff, I have introduced solids both early and late, I have used midwives, I have used OB's, I have liked both and would recommend either, I have had three completely natural births ALL in hospitals, I would have choosen the epidural 2/3 times - if possible - and will be next time if able), I have used disposables, I have yelled at my kids, I have smacked them, I have used time out, I have circumsiced my boys. I am not a perfect mother. I am not the best mother. Sometimes I struggle just to make it though the day, others I cann't believe how joyous and easy having three kids is. I am (I believe) a good mother. I have done as best I have could by my children.

There is a story behind every decision. I could explain those stories if I choose and no matter how for or against a belief people are, most will see the 'exceptions' if shown in the right light. Me, I think everything is the exception, until proven otherwise.

I accept that BB will always have certain bias'. That is part of it's creation. It means that I will find more people on BB with certain leanings then I might IRL. This doesn't bother me. You get bias' everywhere. I know myself. And I know regardless of whether I agree with these bias' or not, I am confident enough in myself to exist and remain as a member.

No-one wants to make anyone feel guilty for having particular beleif, whether the norm or not. But acceptance is a two way street, it is hard to be accepting of anothers beliefs when they are busy riduculing your own. You may not be forcing another to feel guilty - guilt is a feeling they must take ownership of themselves: however you may ask yourself "what is your intention?" And "are you going the best way about doing that?"

If you want to inform, you first need to see if you have a receptive audience, sometimes people just don't want information. But you also need to make sure you are presenting information in a non-accusory format. If you aren't sure, read it back to yourself, only change the information in it to say the oppersite and see what your reaction to it is.

You may not be 'making' someone feel guilty, but if someone is feeling that way, I do think you have a resposibility to ask "what is my ownership in that exchange?" Did I come across as accusetory? Did I want them to feel like that? Was I harsher then nessecary? (I ask myself this last one ALL the time)

Honestly I think it is a good thing all these threads have been started recently, because they have felt like the elephant in the room; and finally people are talking about the things that are bothering them.

[Rouge]

Oh dude. Awesome.

[maz]

ecspecially this bit

You may not be 'making' someone feel guilty, but if someone is feeling that way, I do think you have a resposibility to ask "what is my ownership in that exchange?" Did I come across as accusetory? Did I want them to feel like that? Was I harsher then nessecary? (I ask myself this last one ALL the time)

I do see alot of people questioning how you can have osmeone make you feel guilty. I think you have hit the nail on the head perfectly!! We are all sensitive and have dark moments when we are trying to reach out not to be nailed to a stake.

I remember the c/s thread you were talking about...my heart broke for the OP of it as the first 2 posts were straight to 'the throat'. Kind gloves are much nicer then rough hands at times.

Now to share the love

[Livinthedream]

Misty, you are my new hero.
Awesome post. Exactly what I want to say.
You dont have to justify your decisions in order for them to be informed.
Thankyou.
Shell

[Just Me]

Misty, that was a great post.

Trillian once said something in another thread about attracting more flies with honey than vinegar and I think this is a great motto to remember when posting too and kind of follows on a bit from what misty was saying .

[Roryrory]

Great post Misty

FWIW I have been dabbling in another forum that makes BB look positively commercialised and oh-so-mainstream. It's a real eye opener for me! Just like there are forums around that make the BB community look like a pack of dirty hippies LOL! Reminded me that seeking out parenting advice really is like visiting a supermarket - heaps of options, lots of variations. But you don't stop shopping at Coles because it stocks Kelloggs when you only ever buy Uncle Toby's....

[thepixie]

Misty have to spread the love but wow. Just wow. What an awesome post.

[Trillian]

Misty, that was a great post.

Trillian once said something in another thread about attracting more flies with honey than vinegar and I think this is a great motto to remember when posting too and kind of follows on a bit from what misty was saying .

You must have the memory of an elephant LOL

[Arcadia]

I too luuurved your post misty, but gee my brain is wizzing. I am just wondering whether it is always best practice to wait until people are literally asking what you think before offering your own experiences? I kind of think all interactions are about sharing (and with that goes your insights into being fair to each other, which some would call the PC-ness of posting).

When I was planning a homebirth, I was interrogated by EVERYONE about my reasoning, and the process of listening to their experiences made me feel stronger in my own conviction. I know for a fact my own experience then changed the minds of many around me, even when they weren't expecting it, or 'looking' for advice, but were just receptive to hearing what I experienced itms?

I know the example provided about the c-sec thread was different (and I have seen similar threads before), but I think often a hoo-har occurs because someone wasn't looking for advice or even a countering opinion, but received it anyway. And I truly wonder if that is a bad thing? I TOTALLY agree with rules of engagement being necessary and if you can't add value or say something constructive, then don't say anything, but I honestly think very hard before posting and feel I have a right to contribute to some discussions (obviously only the ones that I have any knowledge/experience in) and I don't always agree with the consensus of viewpoints.

I know, that sometimes we're not receptive to the voices of others, but I am wondering why that is. I think this goes back to the idea of a community also being a 'safe' haven for some, and I can see that asking people to shift their views can be scary.

This discussion reminds me of other social movements gone before us, such as feminists, where other women became some of the strongest opponents of female liberation from gendered roles. Their receptiveness to calls for change were not there and that intrigues me.

I hope that community can be BOTH supportive and a vehicle for change, but I think that requires receptiveness to the opinions of others. Perhaps not ALL the time (like when the thread is titled VENT or Support needed), but if it is a genuine discussion point, I feel the need to be excused from automatically joining in the consenus (if I have a valid point).

My head hurts and I think my logic is circular....ouch!

[Beach Mama]

I haven't been able to gather my thoughts to some sort of coherent response lately but then I read THAT. Thanks for such a wicked post Misty - gotta spread the love but had to post and tell you how spot on I think you are.