Does happy mum REALLY equal happy baby?

[LuluHB]

I'm not sure I've ever read a response more condescending than yours Mayaness and I guess given your response I should be incredibly grateful that you and I have opposing views on this subject.

Liz - I never said it wasn't challenging. In fact, I will tell anyone who asks that this is the most challenging job I have ever had but also the most rewarding.

I think its such a shame that a woman can't say she misses what she used to do pre-mothering without being condemned as someone who doesn't appreciate the privilege of being a mother. I also think its a shame that too few people seem to be capable of accepting that you can actually do both - miss your previous life as well as being a completely devoted, loving, nurturing mother.

[Smoke Jaguar]

Well, I didn't realise they were opposing!
In fact, I could have felt very condescended to myself with your post. And I reckon a lot of people would have actually taken issue with what you wrote. You really did make it sound like committed motherhood and intellectual-ity are mutually exclusive and that the latter takes a beating when the former occurs.
I just haven't found that to be the case, nor necessary.
Mate, if I'd actually had a career before DS, I might even say the same things, but I didn't and I'm glad I didn't because I KNOW women who have a harder time being at peace giving it up for their new babies because of their identity before.

[Liz]

Eek.. ok.. we've been going really well in this thread.. can we keep it nice

Of course you can do both. But what I took from your post Lulu felt like your mature, intellectual, fulfilled self, was separate to your mum role. Which to me makes me feel like I have to do both in order to be respected as intellectual and fulfilled.

Altho i will disagree to a degree about being completely devoted if your heart is pining for something else. But that's not for me to know who's heart is doing what.. but I know I found it hard to be the hardworking, loyal employee I used to be when I was pregnant and pining for a different stage of my life to begin. I personally wouldn't like to be pining for a different part of my life whilst being a SAHM. Sure I can look back fondly at the freedoms I had etc, but I don't miss it to the point of trying to get it back. I'm in this stage of life now and loving it. It's a bit like looking back at school days and missing the freedom, the school holidays etc.. but I wouldn't ever go back there even if I could hehe.

[Trillian]

Lulu hun, I think you missed the point a bit in some of the earlier posts. I got the impression Liz (and please correct me if I'm wrong about this) is all a bit disillusioned about the phrase itself, and the way it's just used willy nilly to justify actions and try to resolve guilt in certain situations, and as such need to start this thread to see if she wasn't alone in her thoughts. yes, the discussion has evolved and isn't so much about that particular statement anymore, but the sentiment is the same. So you see, it's not so much that the term doesn't apply to anyone at all anymore, but often (as in Cassius' situation) it's something that makes you really think about things and change them if they need to be changed. If you feel that you want to apply it to yourself then that's fine, but I think as a group maybe we should think of something else to say, cause when you've got a Mum who's at her wit's end with feeding or sleeping issues, what you say to her can make all the difference in her decision.

And I agree too that we all probably want to cling to our 'past' lives and it is a huge adjustment to move from one role to the other no matter how much you want it - no one is denying that, but jobs come and go and we only get one shot at being a parent - one chance to raise our kids into valuable members of society. What we WANT comes afterwards.

[LuluHB]

Its a pity everybody missed the bit in my post where I said that I wanted to go back to work for me but that because I felt it was better for my children that they had me at home that is what I am and will continue to do.

I agree that it can be used too much Trillian but that doesn't mean there isn't a place for it - and that is my point. For instance, there was a BB member recently who posted about a particular problem she was having (and yes, this is going to stay vague. If the member recognises who she is and wants to join in then fine). She was torn between what to do. My view is that in her particular situation as a stressed, tired, strung out mum she should do what she needed to do for her own good. This was on the basis that neither of the two options she was deciding between were detrimental to her child. Unfortunately other posters gave the poor woman a good guilt trip for even considering one of the options. That was not what she needed (as her PM to me proved). She needed support. Sometimes we just need to hear that it is ok to think of ourselves as well. Sometimes just knowing that is enough to get us through whatever trial we are facing and get on with it again. I'm not for a second giving anyone the right to neglect their child for their own happiness, but if some naff little saying like happy mummy = happy baby gets us through a bad day then so what?

As far as I'm concerned a good mother can't be happy unless her child is happy. So, if a mother does something that makes her life happier, more fulfilled, more whatever then it can only be for the greater good of the whole family.

Liz - I don't want this thread to denegrate. I don't think that you need both but it would really be nice to get a balance (something which I accept is not possible at this stage of my children's lives). I am not intellectually fulfilled by my daughters and I really don't believe anyone who says that they are - an 8 month old and a 20 month old while keeping me totally entranced and engaged cannot keep me intellectually stimulated. Otherwise, the suitability ages on the games would be a whole lot higher than 12 months Neither do I believe that just because you miss something else you aren't 100% focused on what you are doing - anyone who say me with my daughters would support me in that. It would be a pretty sad world if none of us hoped or aspired for something extra in our lives.

[Trillian]

But then you don't have a situation where happy mum = happy baby do you. Your girls might be happy to have you at home, but you sound like it's just a means to an end for you, that you're doing this cause you feel it's better for them - and that's the entire point of all - it doesn't really mean happy mum = happy baby then does it?

[LuluHB]

Geez. Nobody takes in the whole story do they - just the bits to fight against.

I LOVE being with my daughters. I said I would like a balance between staying at home with my girls and being at work. At this stage I believe it would be detrimental to my children for me to put them in day care and go to work a couple of days a week to appease my desire for something a little more. I am not staying at home as a means to an end and find it offensive that that is what you choose to pull out of my post. I shouldn't be criticised as a mother who doesn't want to be at home with her children simply because I am honest enough to admit that there is more to life than playdough.

What I said, and what I have constantly said, is that it is ok to put a mother's wants first when it is not detrimental to the child. Example being I want a bit of me time so this afternoon I am leaving my daughters with their loving grandmother while I go out for a while with a girlfriend. Going tout for a coffee is not a need, it is a want. It will however give me the opportunity to have some intelligent conversation before returning home to continue giving 100% to my children.

I really wish I was the perfect parent that a lot of you think you are.

[Liz]

I guess teachers aren't intellectually fulfilled either then, hanging out with 5yr olds all day. *shrug*

It would be a pretty sad world if none of us hoped or aspired for something extra in our lives.

Yup. Just that, for me, the something extra's include my family, as that is where my life is at right now. It's not about me having to get away and do what I used to do, that would feel like a step backwards for me. We now run a business from home, so research & time etc goes into that, but it rarely takes away from my day with the kids (usually just from my sleep at night lol). That is the balance I've been happy to strike. I have no desire to escape the family to do my own thing.

Anyway.. I guess it depends on what sort of intellectual stimulation you need. I'm not into 'book smarts', I'm more into 'life smarts' (even tho I think both those saying are terribly wrong grammatically LMAO) so I think I've become much more "intellectual" since I've been home as a mum, running the house and learning about dealing with life, and in turn teaching the kids. I'm sure this will only get more challenging as they grow older It's an evolving intellect.. not just specialised and stale in one line of work. That's how I feel anyway.

ETA: yep, everyone's agreeing on that point about looking after ourselves in order to be in a fit state to look after our babies/kids. It's just that the phrase does get bandied around and loses it's meaning and now has a real irritating quality to it the way it is used. I mean, I'd be happy if I didn't have to clean the kitchen 3 times a day.. but I'm sure when I assign it as the kids chores.. happy mum won't equal happy kids! LOL.

[Smoke Jaguar]

I need to spread love, Trillian, so I'll just say here that your post is bang on

[LuluHB]

Thank you Liz. You just made my point. You have EXACTLY what I say I want, but choose not to achieve at this point in my life for the good of my children. You have the balance of being with your children during the day and "other" work that fits in around them.

Mayaness - I will extend my comment that I find the sentiment insulting to you also then.

I've had enough of this thread and in fact BB. I think its a shame that there is a group of ladies on BB that seem to have an aversion to anyone having a different view to them. Its what is making people leave in droves and its what makes the ladies that have sent me encouraging PMs about my posts here (for which I thank you lovelies) reluctant to post because of what the response will be.

[Liz]

Aah well, 4 pages is pretty good going before someone feels like leaving these days

I think Lulu we're essentially all agreeing. Mum's need to do what they need to do to feel refreshed and fulfilled. My gripe with the saying HM=HB is the way it is used. I agree with Bec & I think it was Trillian? (can't remember) who were saying that when the saying is used, usually we're talking about an unhappy mum. And a feel good in the moment phrase like that isn't necessarily going to help with the longterm happiness of whatever decision is being made.

i do like the similarities that have been brought up about people saying "you're baby is alive and healthy, doesn't matter how it got here" and how it totally invalidates the feelings of the mother. So too, throwing out the phrase HM=HB could easily invalidate the feelings of the mother over the core issue, be it the deep desire to breastfeed and finding themselves in the situation where they need to formula feed. Might make them feel better in the moment, but what about actually helping by acknowleding their real feelings? I dunno.. the more I type the more it's not coming out the way I want it.

[MantaRay]

Come on guys. This is an interesting topic and I know that we can discuss it nicely. If you have a problem with a post, please report it. We are here to help.

[sunshine_sieben]

I can't think of anything more fulfilling, challenging, nor independent than the life I have as a mum. I'm not squeezed into some cubicle in an office working for someone else.. I'm at home, free to do as I please with my family, and I work for bosses that love and appreciate me! Altho I'm somewhat underpaid, and I'm sure I'm due for longservice leave some time soon! LOL.

This is exactly how I feel.

Ok, I am a booksmart kind of person (you wouldn't guess it by the amount of typos I make in my posts, would you). I used to hang out with very intelligent people. I used to need that, somehow. I guess being accepted by them proved to me that I am just as intelligent (well at least I like to think I am). Then I got to a different stage in my life when I realised that I don't need the acceptance or even admiration by other people to feel validated. I am now perfectly happy to spend my day marvelling about DD's attempts at using the big girl's toilet. You know what, I find that much more fulfilling than anything I have ever done in my life. I have NO desire to get my old life back. I also used to have a huge social life. And I mean HUUUGE. I love thinking back to those days. But I have NO desire to get them back. I also see this stage of my life as a step forward, not an interlude.
I guess it all depends on the way you see yourself and how you value yourself.

I'm not saying that it is a bad thing to want to have your career or your old life back. And LuluHB, I actually commend you a lot for being able to honestly say how you feel, although you knew that it might go "against the grain". I also commend you for evaluating what you think is more beneficial for your children and for making this sacrifice. I just do hope that your children will never get the impression that you being with them was a sacrifice for you. Again, not saying that you behave like this, but I have heard mothers of older children say that to their kids and I just found that to be extremely unfair.
I just have to say that I personally cannot understand your feelings, as I am just a totally different kind of person. Yes I do have goals and I am striving for something else. Just in my case it is all revolving around my family. But that's just it, we're all different.
I really do hope that you will achieve the balance you wish for once your children are a little older. And I am sad to hear that you are going to leave.

Saša

[Smoke Jaguar]

I'm actually with Sunshine in thinking that it's a good thing to talk about if your babies happiness doesn't equate to your own happiness. I don't have a value judgment on whether one is fulfilled by being at home with their kids, just seeing how it could be harder to derive satisfaction from it if you've come from a background with a career that provided you with a big basis for your self-identity, especially if that career has spanned many years in time. I've seen this happen to friends of mine who delay childbearing. It's all they wanted and then bang! It's sooo different from everything they've known for so long that it's harder for them to adjust to existing for their kids and the world they know to shift on its axis. And I only ever hear cited lack of 'intellectual stimulation' from these friends, whose ideas of 'intellectual' are caught up in academia or the career ladder. In fact, one of my dearest friends who has yet to TTC, and I talked about this the other week and she conceded this very thing. She knows she's going to have a more challenging time coming to terms with a total shift in priorities when she has a baby. She's got a headstart on others who don't even realise this is going to happen and it hits them suddenly!

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

This is really tough because I sort of agree with everyone!

Lulu, I agree with you that a mum needs more than being alone with the children. That might be going out every now and then with friends or her DH (and leaving the children with a known, loved babysitter) or it may mean coffee mornings or whatever. Being a SAHM where you SAH and don't go out to see friends is VERY detrimental.

Maya, I agree that you can be intellectually stimulated and have a child. TBH I think Liebs is a bit too stimulated because I love learning and sharing that learning; DS is learning degree standard science but I figure that the more words he hears the better at this stage!

It's not bad to want a portion of your old life back. I do sometimes. I would LOVE to just book a hair appointment and not think about childcare. I'd love to get home and put my feet up with a bottle of wine. Not having to get up in the middle of the night? Pre-children sounds good to me! But I don't ignore the fact I have a child. I don't book a hair appointment and expect DS to just lump it with either sitting still in a hairdressers or have an unknown person caring for him (I do it while he's in Nursery LOL). I have a glass of wine later in the evening. I get up in the night. The person who can't make even those basic sacrifices because "my life won't change because of a baby" isn't doing the right thing, IMO, although she's a happy mummy.

Anyway. I see all sides of the argument and I think we're all sort of making the same point. A Mum makes sacrifices but still needs to be fulfilled. A Mum can still yearn and desire. A Mum is still a person. But so is a baby and we all respect that.

BTW, Maya, earlier posts re friendship, I see what you're getting at and I agree. I don't want to be a peer-friend to DS, as was modelled to me, but yes, I do want us to have a friendship relationship AS WELL as a parent-child relationship.

[sunshine_sieben]

Lulu, I agree with you that a mum needs more than being alone with the children. That might be going out every now and then with friends or her DH (and leaving the children with a known, loved babysitter) or it may mean coffee mornings or whatever. Being a SAHM where you SAH and don't go out to see friends is VERY detrimental.

So so true. I think especially in the early days/months I would have lost my marbles if I hadn't been able to go out (with my baby) to meet other people. Not because I needed stimulation, I needed support and understanding and advice. I actually think that if you have a young child, it is not good for them if they're stuck in the house with mummy all day either. going out on playdates and walks is much more stimulating for them, too.

Saša

[Schmickers]

I'd just like to add to to Trillian's polite request. This is an important topic, and one that deserves to be discussed, but we'd rather not have to close this thread because it degenerates into a fight. Please, put forward your ideas and opinions and let them stand for themselves, without having to attack other people.

[Smoke Jaguar]

I didn't really venture out on my own much when DS was little - I took him with me to visit my friends, booby club, my horse. With my horse, it WAS a sacrifice I made - I couldn't ride for a while because DP refused to come with me. But at least I got to see my horse (I agist). Nowadays DS can actually have a ride and will play in the sand arena whilst I have a ride, too (I go when no-one else is there, so he won't get run over by other arena users).
I never really felt the itch to do something without DS. In fact, I was at pains to incorporate him into my things. There wasn't anything I was doing in the lead up to DS's birth that was exclusive of children, which I'm grateful for. I'd long given up clubbing and pubbing and getting blind drunk. I was pretty ready for him, even though I doubted myself just before the birth