Does happy mum REALLY equal happy baby?

[Liz]

OK.. first off.. I'm posting this in the gentle parenting section, because I feel like my thoughts on this revolve around infant-led things. I'm not posting to cause any ill feeling or anything like that either. I'm a little wary of where this might go tho, so if it strays I'll ask a mod to delete it I think.

It's just that I see the phrase "happy mum=happy baby" bandied around a lot on this forum, and I'm not sure I really agree with it. Of course, I'm not saying that miserable mums should stay miserable LOL.. it's just that I'd be curious where people draw a line where mum's happiness takes precedence over bub?

I can get totally fed up with feeding through the night, I can get fed up with co-sleeping even (would be lovely to have some me & DH time! LOL) and get totally stressed out dealing with my wilful 2 yr old, but I keep reminding myself of the benefits of infant led breastfeeding, of letting her sleep in our bed, and of keeping DS at home with me full time until he's 3 and is more socially ready to be shipped off to pre-school for a day a week (kinda can't wait for that one! LOL) and so I put up with them.

Yet I reckon if I were to post a thread about me needing some time out or some SLEEP (lol - i wish.. don't really know what sleep is anymore!) that someone would be encouraging me to TAKE that time, get the kids minded a day a week and have some me time, someone would tell me there's no harm in giving a baby formula in order to get some sleep, or to do controlled crying, coz...... happy mum=happy baby. i think I'd rather people just say, yeah it's hard, but you're doing a good thing... or whatever. I'm prepared to give that extra of myself while they're this little, especially that first year, even if it exhausts me LOL. The controlled crying thing for me is a definite one I don't agree with. Not sure how this one makes baby happy.

I dunno, I'm finding as I write this I don't know how to say what I want to say. I guess for me, happy baby=happy mum. hmm.. that probably sums it up for me lol. should delete the rest of my post!

Am I alone thinking this? I just feel that that saying happy mum=happy baby isn't a very supportive thing to say, when really we're all striving to do the best for our kids, and a little support for what we're struggling with would probably go a lot further in keeping everyone happy than just copping out and saying yeah, don't worry about the baby, do what suits you.

i dunno... hopefully this won't spark anything. I'm a bit scared to hit submit, but I really want to know if anyone else thinks this too.

ETA: btw, I'm not talking about extremes like dealing with PND or things like that because obviously they are matters that need dealing with in order for everyone to be happy.

[queenbee]

Liz, really interesting post, I never really thought about it that way. Happy Baby=Happy Mummy sounds more like it. I have said HAPPY MUMMY=HAPPY BABY in regards to breastfeeding when it was just too hard in the beginning. I saw a LC and chose to give her formula after having a good go at breastfeeding, bleeding, cracked nipples, tears every feed and of course low milk supply. I am sure there will be ones to judge me but frankly, I never once felt guilty giving DD formula. I was going to end up depressed if I continued BF so that is the only context I've put it in. Good post though, hopefully this won't start a big argument about anything. Let's remember that every baby and every household is different

[Captain]

Hmm, this is a hard one. I'm not sure that it's happy mum=happy baby. Rather happy mum finds it easier to deal with unhappy baby, iykwim. After a sleepless night, it is hard work to be patient and deal with a wilful and stubborn 3 yo and I quite often find that if I don't deal with it properly things get worse. But after a good nights sleep I can deal with just about any trantrum DD1 can throw at me and by dealing with it properly she can calm down a lot faster.

It's hard because we want to do whats best for our children, but we do also need to look after ourselves so that we can do that. Yes it is helpful to have support to deal with what we are going through. Sometimes that support means having someone help with the kids so that you can have a rest. It's not a bad thing to have time out to yourself if you have someone to watch the kids.

Not sure if that's what you're after.

[Heaven]

I was pondering the same thing too Liz but thought it was just me. I don't really have any experience yet so I don't know how hard it is!! So I felt like I was thinking the wrong thing. Maybe I'm not so wrong. Anyway, an interesting thread and I look forward to reading what others think

[Willow]

I think it's about balance. I don't believe babies should be forced into rigid routines for the convenience of the parents but I also don't think that the baby's needs should absolutely come before the mother's every single time either. As Captain said, if you're always putting yourself, your needs, your desires etc last and you end up suffering mentally, emotionally of physically because of that, then what good are you to your family?

I don't think anyone disputes that every child deserves a happy, healthy mum and that every mum deserves to be just that. So I think it's up to each one of us to decide what works best for our families.

**ETA: Umm, yeah - what Nelle said! LOL.

[sushee]

I actually agree with a lot of what you've said, Liz, but I expect that for some, being unhappy for whatever reason means they cannot cope with their baby, and that's something that needs to be taken into account.

But I agree, I never saw that I had to be rested, free from discomfort or even content to ensure I had a happy baby, so I too don't necessarily think that the whole 'happy mum=happy baby' thing is strictly true. I think gentle parenting is generally easier on baby, though definitely not necessarily easier on the mother. So it would naturally occur, if you don't control cry, for instance, to get less sleep with a baby in the house. Mum might be happier under those circumstances, but baby, on the other hand, may not be. That's the trade-off. So while some may say 'happy mum=happy baby' in those circumstances, and decide that it's what works for their family, I personally don't agree to that trade-off so will not control cry. But I will use sposies instead of cloth because that was a trade off I WAS prepared to make, IYKWIM.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I agree with your philosphy for the most part that you don't have to be a happy mum to have a happy baby.

[Nelle]

I think Happy mum = happy baby (as a general rule, obviously there are exceptions for most things), but I think that different things make each mum happy.
For example, controlled crying, or separate sleeping won't really make you happy because it goes against your parenting beliefs.

I think it comes from the general truth that when your needs are met, it is easier to meet other people's needs. I find this to be true in any relationship, if dh is helping me with things and meeting my needs, I'm much more happy to help him and meet his needs. So if a mum gets something she feels she needs (to have her need met), whether that be 10min of 'me time' a day, to a whole day off, or something else, then it helps her to feel a bit more refreshed, loved and ready to nurture other people.

Does that make sense?

[Liz]

yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with having the time out etc, and completely agree that every household is different.. it's just the phrase that irks me somehow.

And yeah.. having the kids minded so you can catch up on sleep is all good.. but for me, resorting to controlled crying to get that sleep, or making a baby drop night feeds at a really young age, to me isn't about having a happy baby at all.. it's about making baby fit in around you, regardless of how it might affect the baby.

I don't think I've slept through a whole night since DS was born.. so it's coming up to 3 years now LOL. and I could have expressed milk and got someone to help more through the night, but i dunno, I guess my mentality was that feeding was my job.. and even if I expressed for a night worth of feeds, it would only really give me two bothersome days in exchange for a bit of sleep.. ie. a day of expressing to get a few feeds in the fridge, and then the next day dealing with engorged boobies! LOL. So I've just plodded along and followed the kids lead on that kind of thing.

I just feel like the phrase gets used to shirk some everyday mummy stuff. I mean really, when we signed up for this job, we knew life was going to be all about the baby for a while! They start venturing out of the nest soon enough, the first couple of years go pretty quickly.

I think it comes from the general truth that when your needs are met, it is easier to meet other people's needs. I find this to be true in any relationship, if dh is helping me with things and meeting my needs, I'm much more happy to help him and meet his needs. So if a mum gets something she feels she needs (to have her need met), whether that be 10min of 'me time' a day, to a whole day off, or something else, then it helps her to feel a bit more refreshed, loved and ready to nurture other people.

Very very true. i don't want it to sound like I don't think we should have me time or whatever, as I agree with what you've said completely. I just prefer a balance of give & take, and when a very young baby can't voice it's own needs, I feel like that saying leans more towards the take than the give sometimes.

I also feel that if I'm meeting the needs of the baby, the baby is more likely to 'give' me that me-time. I guess it's all just what perspective you take huh.

[Willow]

I think that's the answer Liz - you are obvioulsy happy to do what you are doing and have strong beliefs on issues like b'feeding etc. If those things made you miserable, I think that would be a different situation all together.

[Rouge]

I guess I can see both sides to this.

I will give this example as its the only one I have. Breastfeeding. With my first child, I breastfed till 4 weeks then got given ill advice from a paed and was told to put her on formula, for a week. I did when we tried to re-establish breastfeeding it went really bad. I expressed for another 2 months, we tried everything I had LC's and even feeding tubes. In the end she was so distressed at being held in the nursing position that the LC said it was probably best to discontinue. So I expressed till I couldn't anymore and FF. Now I felt "happy baby = happy mum" WRONG! I went through the worst PND imaginable. And she got severe eczema from the formula. With my second child I breastfed, it was bloody hard in the beginning and I realised a lot of what *I* had been doing the first time around was WRONG. Little things, but they do make a difference. I persevered and it was the most rewarding time of my life. I was able to look back in retrospect and see the things I could have done differently and I wish someone had said to me "Just keep trying" instead of "Just give up."

Of course every situation is different, but this is my story.

[Ginger]

Liz, i completely agree with you.
i, also, get really annoyed when i see that statement thrown around all the time. i guess it's because i don't really understand what it actually means.
there's been times throughout this pg where i definiately haven't been a happy mummy- but i kept breastfeeding ds, and keep co-sleeping with ds as i know these things keep him happy. i personally would prefer to have a full night's sleep.
idk, i tend to think more along the lines of happy baby=happy mummy..and i completely agree that using controlled crying to the point where baby is visablly upset and even throwing up (like i've heard some people do) does not, by any means, equal a happy baby.

[Oorki Galoorki]

YES No yes no.....

i have always put my kids needs before mine a majority of the time(how i need new undies but my children are growing so need there stuff first)
i am weaning DD before she is ready but i know i wont be happy once i have weaned, that doesnt make her unhappy..but its something i feel i need to do..

I also feel that if I'm meeting the needs of the baby, the baby is more likely to 'give' me that me-time. I guess it's all just what perspective you take huh.

ilike this thinking but unfortunatley it hasnt worked that way for ME.. which makes it hard when trying to do it the "right way" (yes i do believe in a right way to parenting)

also i think the key really is knowledge if you are constantly trying to learn new ways of dealing with moments that make you an unhappy mum then your most likely going to succeed...
i bf my first for 8 ish months and was determined to make it to the 12 month mark with my second. so i got so much more information(mostly from the wonderful BB) aswell as getting a great support behind me (local ABA). i made it there, im 6 months past that mark and i know we have been successfull. i just cannot handle this stage now but never have i thought cos it will makeme happy(even though i will regret it) it will make DD happy.

also support plays a huge role. my dh knew how important it was 2nd time round to make it past the 12month mark for me so when i was having bad days he helped me he didnt ever say what about formula just to give yourself a break......


sorry im all over the place with my ramblings...

[Liz]

I also feel that if I'm meeting the needs of the baby, the baby is more likely to 'give' me that me-time. I guess it's all just what perspective you take huh.

ilike this thinking but unfortunatley it hasnt worked that way for ME.. which makes it hard when trying to do it the "right way" (yes i do believe in a right way to parenting)

Yeah, well, doesn't really work for me either, but I like to think it will some time! LOL. As I said, I haven't had a good night sleep in nearly 3 years! But both kids have been very content little things (to a degree!) so I feel like my sacrifices are slowly getting rewarded. For instance, my DS now sleeps RIGHT THROUGH the night. I mean.. that is a HUGE thing for me LOL. Shame DD isn't yet! I feel like meeting his needs to feed to sleep for 2 years paid off with me having a boy that doesn't fight going to bed (he might whinge now & then) but he goes to bed and stays there! So hopefully in the long term it all pays off hehe. I won't know myself once DD starts sleeping through. i probably won't be able to sleep!

[sunshine_sieben]

Mmmmmmm, I so understand where you're coming from.
My good friend has just had her second child. With her first, she ended up having a c/s (because she was being pushed into an unneccessary induction) and because of lack of support she didn't manage to overcome her breastfeeding problems. She felt like she failed at birthing and feeding her baby. So this time around, she decided to have an elective c/s and didn't even try to BF becasue she didn't want to feel like a failure again. She did say her reasoning was happy mum = happy baby. Without judging her, I have to disagree with that. I do think, for her, this might have been the right decision. But maybe not for her baby. It is a compromise that she made. I don't think she has done her baby any harm by making this decision, but saying this decision was made becasue it was ultimately best for baby is what I disagree with.

I think in any family, we constantly have to make comrpomises. Whether it is your relationship with your husband, or between you and your children. We have to weigh up our need for rest against their need for assurance. And maybe the right decision is to have a "night off" every week. DH and I used to do that. Once a week, usually on Saturday night, it was DH's turn to look after DD when she woke in the middle of the night. If she needed a BF, he'd bring her to me, but I didn't have to get out of bed. That was when she only usually fed once a night. This arrangement worked for us. I didn't feel guilty for "neglecting" DD and often it was good bonding time for DH. Often on Sunday mornings, he would let me have a sleep in and h'd take DD to the park or make her breakfast.

But by going against your beliefs, you will not be that happy mum. And yes, you are right, sometimes it gets really really hard. I have often felt that I have chosen the hard path. But it was made a little smoother by the feeling that I'm doing the right thing for my child. And ultimately that makes me happy. So your reversed version is appropriate.

I did use that same saying sometimes to combat people who told me to wean (DD has just recently self-weaned) or used to tell me that co-sleeping was bad for her or to use CC. They used to tell me to do these things for my own sanity, because as the saying goes: "Happy mummy = happy baby". But how can letting my baby cry make me happy?
I used to tell them that breastfeeding made her happy and content and ultimately that made me happy. I told them that she slept a lot better when co-sleeping with me and if I can get more sleep, I am much better able to deal with whatever the day throws at me. Which then makes her more relaxed.
So maybe it should be "Happy baby = Happy mummy = Happy baby"

Sorry for the rambling. But you've raised a good point.

Saša

[AndiE]

Hey, you're scared to submit ... I'm a little scared to post! But here goes ...

Personally, I think happy baby = happy child ... generally. However, it's such a black/white statement, isn't it, when parenting is all colours of the spectrum (maybe more fuschia pink and acqua blue?). And there are always going to be exceptions (probably many) to the rule. As far as whose happiness takes precedence, I think mum/bub's happiness/angst kinda work in tandem, kwim?

I only know from experience that my happiness rubs off on DS, just as any crankiness/stress I'm showing also seems to rub off on him. But there've been plenty of times when all's right with my little world - and he's screaming his head off. Then again, there have been times when DS is happy as Larry and I'm stressing out. I guess we can only strive to be happy and have happy bubs - if that's the right way to put it. Maybe it's all "luck of the draw"

This raising children business isn't always easy - sometimes it's bloody hard work. And being a mum can be very rewarding, but it can also be frustrating, annoying etc. Hell, we're all human - so are our babies. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know .

In summary - you know what's right for your children and for you. All we can do on this forum is offer support and advice (when it's asked for).

Great thread, by the way.

Andie xx

[sushee]

Perhaps I should have worded my post better. I meant that without some sort of outlet (that has nothing to do with the kids) it can often be that you may not be fulfilled as a mum (Stay at Home or not).

[sushee]

I've removed/edited a few posts that were not on topic and were an exchange between two members that has nothing to do with the rest of the discussion.

We've always had a policy that says that disagreements between members need to be dealt with OFF the boards, and not in the public forums. Please adhere to this policy. All further to and fros between members on a personal level will be removed without further notice.

[onthefly]

I'm sorry to see some posters taking offence here. I also am glad to see different opinions and thank those that have contributed.

Reading through it all, and realising that the conversation has gone somewhat off topic, I really see a lot of common ground, however.

I often agree with the sentiment behind the phrase when I see it used, I just think, as Liz says, that it may be more helpful for some people posting for advice/support to get a differently worded response. Or maybe not - I guess I can only really speak for myself here. In a way this really just underlines the problems with relying on an online forum for help in the first place (don't want to criticize BB at all, but the internet does have limitations).