Save Our Sleep

[issy02]

TH methods have worked, i.e. getting children to sleep through. But it only works through reinforcenment and unfortunately, that means that the child has learnt that mum wont come when I call, so why bother? Often this leads to clingy children, and this only shows a insecure attachment - they dont trust their mother, not sure when she'll come back, or when she'll respond.

Babyq - that is a very sad story. A person I know, who described her baby as the perfect Tizzie baby...sleeping through the night and whenever put to bed...showed signs of an insecure attachment, screaming when mother was out of sight, and Inconsolable until she returned. She said she was just a mummy's girl, but I saw something very different. Sometimes it is due to temperament, but often its reinforced.

Thats all from me, ive said what I need, and im not interested in personal attacks, which I believe is what is happening, myself included. I feel so strongly about this topic that I fear my arguments are loosing tact, I dont like that, and im sorry.

Over and out!

issy

[Fleur]

Baby Q, that's heartbreaking.
And yes, Dr Margot Sunderland wrote the Science of Parenting and she has a lot to say in there about the effect of CIO on babies - much as you have described.

To be fair though - I think a lot of people who are saying SOS worked for them didn't necessarily leave their babies to CIO? just took some of the other bits & pieces.

But I guess the issue is with the fact that some parents might read SOS & as a result leave their babies to CIO, which in turn creates this detachment - very sad if you are a first time mum trying to do your best.

[skybie]

We used the CIO method with DD1.
i was a young mum, exhausted and had pnd and did what everyone was telling me to do..just let her cry.
i beleive that as a result of using this method DD1 is an unaffectionate child.
Cuddles make her uncomfortable and she'll only stand it for a second, even over night if she wakes up because she's unwell, had a bad dream or for whatever reason, she'd much preffer a glass of milk over a cuddle, i've tried comforting her in bed and she just constantly tells me to go back into my own bed and that she doesnt want cuddles.
Yes its possibly that this is just how she is but i dont beleive it.

With DD2, i've again been told to let her just cry, but i refuse to do it. Granted there have been a few times that ive been so frustrated that ive had to leave her screaming and walk away for 5 minutes to regroup, sometimes she fell asleep, sometimes she didnt.
I wouldnt necessarily call myself a gentle parenter, i do take snippits from gentle parenting and we're definetly more directed that way, but i do what my heart and head tell me to do.

DD2 is 6 months old and sleeps from 8-5 just about everynight, probably 3-4 nights a week she'll want a feed overnight, and thats totally ok.
So the comments about gentle parenters not having a proper nights sleep in years is totally false, and even if some parents are in this situation so be it, they CHOSE to gentle parent and this is a conciquence(sp?) of it. some ppl CHOOSE to use the SOS method and thats fine too.

Jen u said that SOS helped u pick up on DD's tired cues, u know that a sleep clinic run by the MCHN also teaches u these things.

As soon as i see DD2 giving sleep cues i feed her and put her to bed, sometimes she's still awake, sometimes she's asleep. if she's awake probably 6 times out of 10 she'll put herself to sleep, sometimes i have to go back into her room and pick her up and either just cuddle her or offer her boobie again till she calms down or falls asleep and then we try again, occasionally i'll have to do this 3-4 times before she'll actually go down, but thats ok because in the end she's putting herself to sleep even though im a gentle parenter, and i think thats pretty good for only 6 months old.In other words, u can get ur baby to self settle and sleep through the night by gentle parenting!

We all know that babies do very well on routine, gentle parenting, sos or any other similar method, it doesnt matter, routine is the one thing they all have in common.

i'm sorry some of u that use the SOS method have been upset by comments made people who dont use this method, but if u google bellybelly, it says its a gentle parenting forum so a majority of parents in her arent going to like this method and will disagree with it. and if thats not something you're happy about then maybe its time to leave BB and find a parenting forum who is a little bit more accepting of this method

[lilima]

I own this book, and I have used some of the methods with DD (although not all) She started sleping through at about 6 months. She is a now a very good sleeper, self settles happily and wakes up happily.
The book never suggests to leave a distressed baby crying or to leave them alone to CIO.

On the Flip side...............

My sister had severe PND. She was hospitalised for near 2 months. She had this book, and became very distressed when her baby did not "conform" to what she "should" be doing. I am not totally blaming the book, but it was THIS particular book that she was trying to follow. (although there were many other factors contributing to her PND, this book did not help her at all)

The thing is that babies have their own personalities and make their own choices from birth.

[tattoo_mama]

I own this book, and I have used some of the methods with DD (although not all) She started sleping through at about 6 months. She is a now a very good sleeper, self settles happily and wakes up happily.
The book never suggests to leave a distressed baby crying or to leave them alone to CIO.

On the Flip side...............

My sister had severe PND. She was hospitalised for near 2 months. She had this book, and became very distressed when her baby did not "conform" to what she "should" be doing. I am not totally blaming the book, but it was THIS particular book that she was trying to follow. (although there were many other factors contributing to her PND, this book did not help her at all)

The thing is that babies have their own personalities and make their own choices from birth.

i agree, i had severe PNd and was in hospital for about a month, i was distraught cause DD didnt fit the routine, it wasnt until a few weeks ago that babies dont read the books we get (lol) and they make thier own choices. just like us adults, some wake at nite, some want day sleeps, some dont...

also, no she doesnt technically call it CIO but she says to 'put up with it as long as you can stand it', for me that was 30 seconds, some parents could go outside for an hour to 'put up with it'...i find that disturbing... i guess im not a gentle parenter (DD sleeps in her own room, is FF, self settles most of the time and i dont rock/pat) but i could never leave DD to cry for longer than 5 mins to gather my own sanity back

[tattoo_mama]

also this quote from the book disturbs me:

"if you repsonded every time your baby protested, he would soon learn to protest whenever he wanted your attention. ...its not fair on a baby to be taught that someone will repsond to every protest because as your baby grows up, other people wont like this behavior."

um how is that not fair on the baby?? sounds more like, not fair on the people around that a baby knows how to voice when it need something...

[Livinthedream]

I was not going to post any further, as I have already stated,I dont feel the need to justify myself, Ds is a very happy, affectionate, well adjusted engaging little kid.

I am pretty sure there are no vacant stares here.

BUT to anyone who takes exception to SOS or any non gentle method of self settling, YOU DO REALISE THAT MY BABY DOESNT CRY HIMSELF TO SLEEP EVERYTIME I PUT HIM IN BED DONT YOU?
The first sleep, on the first day, it was 20 mins, by day 2 I put him in his cot and didnt hear a peep.
Far out people, does anyone of you seriously want to tell me that your kid has never cried for 20 mins for one reason or another?

I guess I lucky enough that I didnt treat the book like it was some kind of gospel that I had to follow to the letter. I used my judgement and took the bits and pieces that worked for us and went with them.
So when people post about what I think of the book, I can honestly reply "I read it, I used parts of it, and they worked for us"

Skybie, how lovely and gentle of you to suggest that because of my differing opinion I should perhaps find a different forum. Maybe you should consider posting your opinions on gentle parenting in the gentle parenting section of this forum, not the routines and programs section

[skybie]

MLM i never said u should go to different forum because u have a different opinion, i think its great that ppl have different opinions the world would be a boring place if we didnt. i said that if the comments are upsetting u then maybe u should think about it...please dont twist my words and make out that i'm being nasty because im not.

like i said i've used two very different kind of methods, and what i was describing was our ROUTINE which is what this section is for.

i never directed my post to anyone, besides jen but that was a simple, im not sure if u knew direction. i really dont know why u feel the need to single me out

[Heaven]

i feel it detrimental to a mothers health to read that what shes doing is evil and psychologically damaging. i think the wording of some posts makes them come across in a different manner to how they are meant.
i will continue to do things my way, with a little of this and a little of that, and a lot of whatever works for my dd, regardless of anyones opinion. i do hope others wont change what works for them just because a few people told them its evil

This comes up a lot. I understand what you're saying but I have a different view. As an (extreme) example: What if a mother beats her child every time it does something wrong. She thinks she's doing what works best for her bc the result is she has a child who is always compliant and doesn't throw tantrums. Clearly this is not the best situation for a child. Should we just say 'each to their own' and not disagree, not tell her there is a better way, not tell her that science has proven this is detrimental to her child, in order to spare her feelings???? I don't think so personally.

Again, an extreme example, I of course don't think anyone is severely damaging their child in this way!!!! But I do not agree with CC at all and I do believe that research suggests it can be damaging to children. I'm not willing to take that chance.

[Curly]

I honestly think that all of you who don't agree with SOS, TH, CIO etc etc should probably butt out of this thread now. I can't believe how aggressive and self-righteous this is getting. Some posters are verging on accusing others of child abuse.

If someone was posting in the gentle parenting forum about constant night waking, say, and someone responded by recommending this book everyone would be jumping down their throat.

A bit of mutual respect wouldn't go astray. We are all mothers doing what we believe is best for our children.

So much for the sisterhood. Women are each others' worst enemy.

[Livinthedream]

Well said Curly



And that concludes my participation in this discussion.

[Arcadia]

It's sad that we have to even have discussions on routines for babies. If we all lived in a village and saw parenting first hand we could see what works and what doesn't. I think these discussions in an online environment are hard because the variables for each persons situation are exponential. We don't really know each other, so I think perhaps we should try not to assume anything about why someone chooses one method over another.

Women need each other...well I need you all, so please let's keep supporting each other...despite our differences!

[EsJay]

anna, mlm and curly - exactly, women should support each other, and support in a positive way,. its hard enough raising kids without fighting with other mothers.

heaven, as i said in earlier posts, there are ways to positively support mothers by suggesting alternative methods that may make them want to consider them, then there are ways to suggest other methods that make the parent decide not to even think about them due to the way they were suggested. someone beating their child is hardly the same thing, and even then if you want to tell someone what they are doing is wrong, you have to broach the subject tactfully, and on a level that person can understand and feel comfortable with, not making them feel attacked and told what to do.

skybie my CHN is actually a lc, which from what i hear is rare in the public system in a rural area, there are none that i could find within an hour drive as i live in the sticks, because of this she focuses mainly on bf support and runs a weekly bf group. i attempted to discuss sleep issues, settling, cues, how much etc with her and she told me bf group (which is the only time she sees people other than the initial home visit) is not the place and if i need help i have to get a referral to a sleep clinic in sydney, so for me this was an absolute last resort.
i agree that perhaps bb is not the place for everyone, i have thought that for myself for a couple of weeks now, but i have made some terrific friends on here, i get a lot out of bb and i hope that my baby buddies contributions are positive ones to my fellow buddies, so im not sure that i want to give up the people i have met and our thread.
when i googled pregnancy when ttc, bb came up, the info section on google never mentioned gentle parenting once, and i never read any of that stuff till recently, as i stuck to the section that matched my situation, ttc then pregnancy and now baby, i never read ahead, so until recently never knew this about bb.

my baby has never been forced to sleep through, i have never once failed to rise for a night cry, i have never once made her wait for a feed, yet since the very first night on sos she has slept through that was 6 weeks of age. she has not one single night woken and cried, she gains generous amounts of weight, and is rarely awake in the morning when i go in, so and i dont mean to sound rude, it is hard to emote in writing, but does this make my baby abnormal? will she be damaged and detached because she sleeps through?

there are no vacant stares or weird behaviour here either.

someone asked why do people who have read sos go on to read other books, i just wanted to know what all the fuss was about gentle parenting. honestly i had not heard the term till a few weeks ago when i looked around bb.
after doing a bit of looking around i found i had tried/failed some of these tactics, and still use others that work for me.

so if you arent a gentle parent as you use some of the sos tactics for sleep times etc, yet you dont stick to sos, and do use some of the gentle parenting tactics such as feed to sleep, no cc etc, then where does that leave you? where do you fit in? where can you freely post without breaking bb rules, without offending anyone or feeling like you are being told your harming your baby?

[Nelle]

Just thought I'd clarify that absolutely no-one should feel unwelcome on BB just because they do not 100% gentle parent. We definitely advocate parenting styles that fall under the 'gentle' or 'natural' umbrella, but absolutely everyone is welcome, to share how they parent and to learn how others parent.

I know that many people are concerned about new parents who might read a book and apply all of its concepts without regard to their own instincts and common sense (and I am aware that some people do that). I imagine this could be potentially problematic with many books. I'm also aware that many people read all sorts of parenting books and pick and choose what works for them. I haven't read Save Our Sleep so can't personally address the theories, but I wonder if gentle questioning about what people find helpful about the book and how much they subscribe to it, wouldn't be more beneficial than arguing over the book. xo

[Arcadia]

Jen, please don't start doubting yourself!!! I too went through a stage of sleep training my dd and it did work for us for a while, so I know where you're coming from. I remember feeling so out on a limb because I loved all the other attachment parent or gentle parent ideas but I just couldn't handle the lack of sleep. I was headed for pnd.

It's hard when you feel like no one 'gets' your unique circumstance, so that's why I keep posting that we all are just trying our best.

After much reading, thinking, talking and more rest I did a massive 180 and am now a full time co-sleeping all night feeding attachment style parent. But I will never forget the journey to this point. We all struggle on the best we can, but bb is great for opening your eyes to other possibities if you want them. Whatever works! There is no right and wrong way. I would prefer we gave mums more help and support rather than 'fix' the baby, but that's the point I reached for myself.

[Arcadia]

Double post... iPhone is difficult to reply with!!

[Shanti]

i just wanted to know what all the fuss was about gentle parenting. honestly i had not heard the term till a few weeks ago when i looked around bb.
after doing a bit of looking around i found i had tried/failed some of these tactics, and still use others that work for me.

What's all the fuss about Gentle Parenting you ask? I wouldn't call it "fuss" as such... it's actually an effective way of raising babies and is also quite often called "attachment parenting" and also "responsive parenting". It's an instinctual way of raising babies to meet all their needs 24/7. It's about keeping a close bond with your baby through co-sleeping, breastfeeding, baby wearing etc those sort of things.... of course, just because a parent doesn't do all those things doesn't mean they aren't 'gentle' parenting or attachment parenting. But sticking along those general lines.....not leaving babies to CIO or CC etc....

Here is an extract from Dr Sears website - interesting to read......
"Attachment parenting is not a new style of parenting. Attachment parenting is one of the oldest ways of caring for babies. In fact, it's the way that parents for centuries have taken care of babies, until childcare advisors came on the scene and led parents to follow books instead of their babies. Picture your family on a deserted island and you've just delivered a baby. There are no books, advisors, or in-laws around to shower you with child baby- tending advice. The baby B's of attachment parenting would come naturally to you as they have other cultures who have centuries more child-rearing experience and tradition than all of us have. "

My journey has been similar to Anna's in terms of finding what worked for us at different times with DD but then reaching a point where you go "you know what? THIS, what we are doing is working just fine, why try and fix something that aint broken???" and going with the flow.
I too would like to point out I think we all do a wonderful job as Mum's and parents. It sure is the most challenging (yet rewarding!!!) thing we could ever do and its a huge responsibility raising these little precious people!!! No matter what our choices are as parents, we do need to support each other at the end of the day.

[Arcadia]

Love your work Shanti!