Following on from my Do you have expectations for your children thread (https://www.bellybelly.com.au/forums...-children.html) I also often think about whether parenting really matters that much, if (sometimes) at all. And I should just say first up that I think I am a very contentious parent. I think and care about how I parent, I educate myself about parenting choices and I make conscious decisions wrt parenting (but that does not mean I am a helicopter parent, I like to give my kids a lot of personal exploration space).
And I apologise in advance for using the labels "good" and "bad". I am fully aware that these are terms laden with judgment and that IRL there is a history and complex set of circumstances behind each and every person and situation. But for the purposes of this discussion and for simplicity, can you all just get what I mean.
So, I guess I just see so many examples that stick out in my mind of when things don't turn out the way you'd think they should? A very good friend IRL comes from a completely normal, loving family with lovely parents and he is just the nicest, sweetest person ever. But his older brother, hooley dooley, he is just the pits, one of the most revolting people I have ever meet. I guess you can never know everything about the brother's life experiences, and there might be a reason why he is like that, but I suspect that sometimes, there just is no reason at all. It's just the way it is.
And then, other people I know of IRL, and the numerous glimpses of people's stories here on BB, of people that not only had too-strict/too-loose/disinterested parents, but that were actually abused by their parents, horrifically, over years and years, these examples are also stunning. And not only did these people turn out okay, they are some of the most amazing people I have ever met and wonderful, loving, beautiful parents themselves. And in the public eye you can find lots of examples of people from broken beginnings shining through their circumstances and creating an amazing life.
I suppose these are just very strong examples and so I am drawn to them, but actually for the vast majority of the time it is a case of "you reap what you sow" and bad parents end up growing bad children and good parents end up with good ones.
But anyway, all of these examples feed in to why I don't have expectations for my children. Sure, you can do all that you possibly can to reduce the risk, and being a "good" parent is the best thing you could ever do, so in that sense yes, parenting does matter, a lot! But as with life and everything, there are never any guarantees. It's that amazing mix of genes and environment that gives us the diversity that I so appreciate, but that is also so both exhilarating and terrifying.
I dont know if this is waht you mean but here it goes...excuse my lack of smarts, I am not very good wiht getting the words out
Ok so I have the same kinda feelings....Does it come down to parenting, can it be maybe that one parent gave the stable loving foundations wiht lots of love and ciddles and the other didnt.
Some examples.....
I had a friend whose father commited sucide, she then was abused, her brother gave her drugs from grade 4, she has continued down the same path of self destruction but always laying balme to her past...her mother was very unkind and never supportive...so where did this little girls path change? Why did she allow the past to shape her future..she had many many chances? Was it because of the way she was parented? Her mother was a good christian woman who jsut didn show very much affection?
My other friend was beaten by her abusive father, but her mother was their strentgh, she was also born wiht a disablitiy she has very short arms and 3 fingers on each hand...her mother was told to put her in a home She had a shocking upbringing, but her mother was always loving etc she didnt let her past dictate her future... she has worked very high up in governments etc
I spose what I am trying to say is you can lay the foundation for your children, but what type of house they build is up to them so in a way, no parenting doesnt really matter as when they hit the age of doing things their way they will do what they want no matter what type of parent you are? You can only guide them so far.
This is a really hard question. Some times your are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't, iykwim. If you build a strong supportive foundation, encourage self esteem and problem solving then really at the end of the day the rest is up to them (unfortunately).
I've seen kids come from really privileged backgrounds and turn out to be bad eggs or go down the path of destruction and I've seen kids have terrible lives and succeed beyond belief.
My greatest fear as a parent is that my child is going to turn around and tell me I've done a bad job.
I think parenting is very important - even though I know that being a good parent doesn't mean that your children will turn out the way you hope they will be.
(And this is the short version!)
I think that sometimes the difference between a rebellious teen and a totally messed up adult could simply be good example.
Ya know Rach, thats really deep thinkin you got goin on. I think my view of it is pretty simplistic - you can give a person all the tools in life, but they have be the ones to wield them.
In my opinion, people can volunteer to be victims, they can let what happened to them drag them down and not strive to do it differently. Or, they can see what they don't want to become. I don't think it entirely comes down to parenting, because bad kids happen to good parents too - so I think its the soul within the child that determines what they do in life.
I dunno - maybe its too late for me to be pondering these kinds of things!
Nature vs Nurture is one of my favourite topics. I haven't read anything much on it but I think about it alot. I think it is a question that can never really have a definitive answer but I believe in general, nature is much stronger than nurture. However that may not be true for extreme situations such as physical or sexual abuse.
I think the important part of parenting is showing by example. I never heard my mum say a bad word about anyone while I was growing up, even though she probably had good reason to. It was therefore ingrained in me that people are basically "good" and I still have that and am grateful for that attitude. I don't criticise people either and hope to instill the same attitude in my DD.
I think we all see those examples of people who have triumphed against all odds and those that have been given every opportunity but not taken it. I agree it is terrifying wondering how your children are going to "turn out".
Am I a "good" person in your eyes? Loving, caring, responsive, "good" mother?
I had "fair-to-bad" parents, in my eyes, and was emotionally abused and neglected. This has caused years of depression, low self-worth, lead to anorexia and self-harm... it's not pretty.
I may look good on the outside, but inside I'm a hollow shell of a person.
That's why I want to be a "good" parent - so my DS will at least be beautiful on the inside. Of course I want his actions to beautify him and glorify God, but I want that to come from a place of peace not fear and loathing.
I don't know if you can really talk about 'bad' parents at all - I grew up in a pretty abusive environment and I have come to understand that the mistakes my parent made stemmed from their own legacy of pain from their childhood. Unfortunately they chose to not attempt to heal that pain in themself (because that involves going to some scary places) and so instead played out unconsciously onto the next generation. I think that's what happens a lot - but when you do the work on yourself - to heal your own brokenness, then you have half a hope of passing on something good and whole and worthwhile to your children/other significant relationships.
I have observed over time that parents generally try to do their best - and children often blame them for this, particularly once they are adults themselves. So I have a saying that I think really distils the most important parts of the relationhip: It is the parent's job to love the child UNCONDITIONALLY, and provided they have done this, it's the child's job to forgive the parent for being human.
I have witnessed how my MIL has affected my dh. he is lacking emotional intelligence and has a very strained rel/ship with her. i believe that this section of who he is as a 'whole person' has been strongly held back by the way that he has been nurtured, and so i guess in my parenting i want my kids to be the best that they can be. i think that you give them the foundation and then they choose where to go with it. i guess i think our job is to give them the strongest platform to stand on.
The parent should not only love the child unconditionally, but do THEIR best to keep them safe. It also means NOT abusing their children. There may be a history but you KNOW how bad you feel when you were abused, why do it to your own child?
My mother may well love me, but she has pointed out several times when she didn't lift a finger to keep me safe and protected (mentally and emotionally) and she emotionally abused me. I'd say that was "fair-to-bad" parenting, taking into account her history.
Of course I can forgive her that. It doesn't mean I have to like what happened or think she's a good parent though.
Last edited by Ca Plane Pour Moi; March 19th, 2010 at 10:08 PM.
: oooops- conditionally changed to unconditionally!
LZ, I don't believe it's possible to love your child unconditionally and abuse or neglect them or fail to keep them safe. They are completely seperate circles on a Venn diagram. Just my opinion.
Very interesting topic but it's hard to reach a conclusion because most of us only really have our own experiences to analyse indepth.
My parents definitely tried their best and they are good people. However, I firmly believe that my life would have turned out quite differently with more encouraging parents.
But the differences between siblings is always quite compelling in the nature vs nurture argument. Temperament aside, I'm really not sure if my sister and I have the same values but we may be an extreme case as DP says he has never met siblings so dissimilar.
I think most of us would agree that children's personality is already pre-determined to a large extent when they come out. As I've said before in my posts, I can't take the credit for DD being outgoing and sociable because she really hasn't socialised with that many children. I haven't nurtured her outgoing nature, that's just the way she is. However, I guess if I thought that she was naturally shy, then I may have made more effort to make sure that she did meet other kids. Similarly, she's quite a daredevil - I'm happy that she is but nothing I've done has made her that way. But again, if she was naturally quite fearful then I would be trying to think of ways to help her not to be.
This is such a great post Epacaris! I am too tired... (I think we might have measles... ) & am typing with half a hand whilst stroking Immy, stroking DS, Gloria (the ****zu maltese) has joined the scene on the bed along with Pat the cat... So I can't answer properly but will be back very soon during daylight after at least 8 hours uninterrupted sleep (aah the power of positive projection!!! )
Well... my mother gave no guidance whatsoever and was in a nutshell: nasty.
I was a bad egg.
My brother was an angel and now very successful, humble, kind hearted and happy.
That said, he had a lot of support from the rest of the family, whereas I was "not so good" directly quoted.
It's so hard to say, isn't it? Psychological studies says nature over nurture..
I love it when you get all deep and reflective Rach - it always makes for good reading!
Is parenting important? Yes, I think it is critically important. Is it determinative? Well no, as the examples you mention show, obviously not. I like what Amber said about providing the foundation, and its up to our children to build on that. I think deep down we all feel that parenting our children is possibly the most important thing we will do in this lifetime. Unfortunately that doesn't give us any guarantees about their future.
Still I think for most of the people who frequent this forum, we wouldn't be able to live with ourselves if we didn't give it everything we had.
What a great question. I think the way we parent is important, because it's the first relationship a child has. I believe the relationships in our lives are determinative of what kind of person we become. I believe our purpose in life is relationship.
I do also believe that we've been lovingly put together and we do have a strong personality from birth. But how that personality develops is determined by the feedback it gets from others. So parenting is important because it's that first feedback our little personalities get. But it's not the only relationship a person will have in a lifetime, so it is not the be all and end all IMO.
This is also a topic that interests me alot, and I think about it often when I am looking at the 27 kids I teach and seeing some of the best and worst displays of behaviou, and believe me I have seen some of the most horrific displays of behaviour- but usually from a child with a story attached.
Yes I think parenting is important, I think it lays so many important foundations for life long learning and success. If we don't lead by example, and be our child's loudest and strongest advocate in life, then who is going to do it for them? If we dont give them skills to make appropriate choices in life, give the knowledge of consequences of their actions, show them that even though sometimes we make bad choices in life, but it is how we deal with the fallout that is important- then they are skills they are not necessarily going to build on their own.
I have seen so many displays of parents trying to do the best for the children with the skills that they have- but due to circumstances in their life, their child has been some of the horrors of life that no child should ever have to be exposed to, and consequently developed poor behaviour as their barrier or coping strategy. I do believe though that these children with parents, trying to do the best for them, even though times are tough and situations are difficult will have a much better outcome, than a child who's parents throw their hands up in the air and decide it is too difficult to deal with.
I have also met parents who think that the best way to deal with their child's behaviour is too make excuses for them, give you a barrage of reasons why they have or haven't done something, and why they should or shouldn't do it- instead of simply teaching their children that you have to be excepting of the consequences of situations you create- so many children these days refuse to accept the responsibility of their actions, because their parents either out of love or other reasons shelter them from that. While no parent ever wants to see their child hurt or upset, you set up life long consequences by sheilding your child from their responsibilities.
It is true that their is going to come a time in our child's life that they are going to have to start making their own decisions, they are going to have to decide on what is good and what is right, and they are going to have to stand up to their responsibilities. This is where we as parents have to hope and pray that the foundations we have laid for them are strong enough to guide them past the influences of life, peers, addiction, fun- so deep down they keep coming back to lessons we have taught them to guide them.
Like Camme-Lot says, we help our children develop their toolbox of skills and we send them into the world hoping they have the good sense to use them build their own life, and pass on what they know is good and right to the next generation!
I think that there are also situations in life where people have not had the best parenting example, who have seen some terrible things and had some horrific experiences, and they have managed to come through this and make the choice to be different from what they know- they have built their own toolboxs for life made the choice to be different.
Last edited by *Ali*; March 20th, 2010 at 09:10 AM.
Does parenting really matter?
hooley dooley, he is just the pits, one of the most revolting people I have ever meet. I guess you can never know everything about the brother's life experiences, and there might be a reason why he is like that, but I suspect that sometimes, there just is no reason at all. It's just the way it is.
Reply With QuoteShe had a shocking upbringing, but her mother was always loving etc she didnt let her past dictate her future... she has worked very high up in governments etc
) & am typing with half a hand whilst stroking Immy, stroking DS, Gloria (the ****zu maltese) has joined the scene on the bed along with Pat the cat... So I can't answer properly but will be back very soon during daylight after at least 8 hours uninterrupted sleep (aah the power of positive projection!!! 
)
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