Atheism/Agnosticism General Discussion #1

[christy]

Mod Hat on: As this is the discussion thread for athiesm/agnosticism, can we please keep the discussion there? I can understand wanting to explain why you believe something, but this is not the place for that Thanks

[Bathsheba]

Apologies if I over stepped the line Christy. I was just responding to:

I think it is worth stating that striving to be a good human being while we are alive is far more noble than striving to be a good human being for when we are dead.

and references that Heaven isn't worth being moral for. I wasn't offended though... hope I also didn't offend.

It's a tricky (but interesting!) thread. Like Cailin said: Agnosticism is a belief in a greater power but not a specific God as per any particular religion... Maybe I am partially Agnostic... still trying to work it out!

[Aimz]

This is a thread where I assume I can express my beliefs without offending anyone as it is a thread for people who do not believe in god or any particular god. So I will not apologise for expressing my beliefs and I shouldn't have to worry about offending. Am I right?

And for the record, my references stating that heaven is not worth being moral for is MY OPINION and my belief system as I do not believe that there is heaven and I find it a much better use of my time being moral because it is simply the right thing to do. I in no way singled out any one person so please don't feel like I did. If I wanted to express my views to a particular religious group on this subject and put myself out there then I would gate crash that thread - which I have absolutely no intention of doing as I have mentioned that I deeply respect ALL religions, their core values and the people that follow those beliefs. I am simply expressing my own.

This thread should not be a debate about whether one person is right or wrong.

[paradise lost]

See Bath i don't have a God that challenges, i challenge myself. It is ME who expects better of me, and when life throws it's numerous challenges it is ME i hold responsible for how they come out and MY OWN good i work hard at resolving them for.

SJ i did not choose my belief it is just how i am. I do not see evidence of God, but i know if i believed i would only need to open my eyes to see evidence as if one believes in God then mere reality is rich proof enough that He exists. I was not Christened and was encouraged to explore/find my own spirituality. I would say that though i find things to admire in all the major religions i know about, i probably identify most with buddhism. I have "tried out" as a child Catholicism, CofE, CofS, Islam and Judaism. None fit or rang true to enough convince me.

Religion is interesting to me, but i can't say i believe in it. Do i pray? Absolutely, if someone who is a follower of a religion asks me to, i pray for them, i appeal to their god on their behalf. If their God exists He will see what is in my heart and know it is love and not a double standard which drives me, and if He does not exist i am doing no-one any harm.

I pretty much see God in a black and white way. Either he exists or he doesn't. I might not believe in cars, but that doesn't protect me if i walk casually into the road. I try to do what i know is right because i know i should, many many people religious or not live that way, and i don't delineate. I am deeply religious in my actions, i just don't aim my gratitude or wonder or love at a God.

Hope that makes sense.

Bx

[Heaven]

Makes perfect sense.

Do i pray? Absolutely, if someone who is a follower of a religion asks me to, i pray for them, i appeal to their god on their behalf. If their God exists He will see what is in my heart and know it is love and not a double standard which drives me, and if He does not exist i am doing no-one any harm.

I think that's really nice

[Rouge]

Can I please ask that this thread remain for the purpose it was created. And that is for agnostics/athiests to discuss their belief system. There are other threads created where those who have different beliefs can discuss their faith, but please refrain from doing so here. Yes, all are welcome here but this forum is not for debates, nor are any of the other spirituality & religion threads. If anyone wishes to discuss this further you can contact me personally. But any further posts regarding this matter will be removed.

[Aimz]

... i don't have a God that challenges, i challenge myself. It is ME who expects better of me, and when life throws it's numerous challenges it is ME i hold responsible for how they come out and MY OWN good i work hard at resolving them for.

I completely agree Hoobley - this reinforces my point of humanity taking credit/responsibility for our own actions without thanking/blaming a particular entity for it.

I am with Niliac in that I wouldn't enter a forum on christianity or hinduism and state my belief system and then ask these members why they believe in god - sparking a debate on religion. I respect others belief systems and I would like my beliefs to also be respected - not questioned or judged - but openly discussed by people who share similar beliefs.

[echidna]

Hello. I am non-religious. I was told to go here to talk about it.

[suse]

What do you want to talk about echidna?

ETA: Just reading back on earlier posts in the thread, and a few people have questioned the difference between agnosticism and atheism. This is not intended to challenge anybody's personal interpretation of the concept of agnosticism, as there are accepted interpretations that do deviate from the original meaning of the term. But I thought I'd throw in a bit of the history and provenance of the concept of agnosticism for anyone interested.

Agnosticism literally means 'without knowledge' (from 'gnosis' - to know). It is a philosophical stance whereby the holder acknowledges that the reason for, or source of existence is unprovable. The concept was originally developed in the 19th century by TH Huxley, who defined it as being "...wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can provide evidence which logically justifies that certainty. This is what agnosticism asserts and in my opinion, is all that is essential to agnosticism." Agnosticism is an intellectual concept; its core tenet is a rejection of the unprovable. It is not that an agnostic is open to the possibility of existence of a higher being, but that it cannot be proven.

Atheism, on the other hand, is either non-belief in a higher power (known as 'weak' atheism) or denial of the existence of a higher power (known as 'strong' atheism).

[echidna]

I'm not sure what I want to talk about. Perhaps, as non-religious people, do you feel offended when someone of faith tells you how great their faith is and offeres to pray for you?

[suse]

Personally, no I don't feel offended, I actually feel honoured that somebody would do that. Just because I don't have faith, doesn't mean that it is any less valid to those who do.

It depends on how it is intended though. If the person respects that I hold a different belief and does not see me as a lesser person for not having faith, then it can be quite a beautiful thing to know that they are extending their faith to me in the form of prayer, which I understand to be a very deep and personal expression of a person's relationship with God.

[echidna]

What I was thinking, discussion turns to say Christenings. And a friend says how great it is to be baptised so you can go to heaven, ...... and then offers to pray for your baby. Sometimes I feel patronised when someone I am talking to knows I am non-religious keeps talking about religion or keeps trying to win me over.

[Aimz]

Personally, I don't bring up my belief system unless somebody brings up theirs with me. I am confident enough with my life stance that I can openly and honestly describe my own beliefs without feeling I have offended anyone.

My Uncle once said to me, after explaining my belief system (Humanism) that he would pray for my eternal soul because he feared I would not be accepted into heaven. I politely told him his prayer wasn't necessary.

[Aimz]

do you feel offended when someone of faith tells you how great their faith is and offeres to pray for you?

Just further to my previous post...

I think when people are honest and open about how great their faith is, then that can be a cue for you to be honest and open about yours. What I did was establish where my beliefs lie. It's one thing to say that you don't believe in God, so what DO you believe in? Where do your values and morals come from? What keeps you going? What pushes you?

Having done extensive research into Humanism and establishing this as my belief system, I have been able to come up with a response that answers all of these questions without simply saying "Because I just don't believe in God". I can say that I believe that Humans create their own destiny, we create our own purpose in life. When we die, I don't believe we go to Heaven, but I do believe we live on in the people who's lives we touched, because we leave our mark on them, our impression (this in turn has a butterfly effect). My values and morals are born from an appreciation for the world in which we live. I feel we have a responsibility to protect the Earth for future generations of Humans. I believe that people have a duty to be good to each other, and being good to yourself is the core of that belief.

There is a way of explaining your belief system without offending anyone - that's my way of doing it! And I am not offended when people open up about their religion. In fact, I find it facinating and I learn as much as I can from them. I think it's important that we have tolerence for ALL belief systems. Understanding brings peace.

[suse]

Echidna, in the situation you've described, your friend seems to have little respect for your choices, and I can understand how her offer to pray for your daughter makes you feel uncomfortable, because she is implying that there is a 'need' to do so. I feel that there is a difference between somebody praying for you (for example, that good things happen in your life) as an extension of love and respect, and somebody praying for you because they believe that you will not be a full and complete person unless God is in your life.

Belief is such a personal thing. The fact that I don't believe in a higher power does not make a Christian's belief any less valid, and vice versa.

Would you feel comfortable telling her that you respect her faith and that it is important to her, but would prefer not to discuss religion with her at all unless she genuinely is interested in your choices? I agree with Amy that it is valuable to have your own moral position clearly defined, and at the end of the day, all you need to know is that you are comfortable with your own beliefs, if somebody else is not, that's their problem.

[echidna]

Actually it was a hypothetical friend. I do have religious friends who know that I have been in and out of religion, and don't push it anymore. They know that I will go to church when I am ready.

Its not that I don't believe in God. Its more of a, there might be a God, but I don't see the point of praying in my opinion. Many people need it, and I understand that. But I take a step back and look at it this way, the most devout countries have more poverty, famine and disease than secular, or not-so-religious countries. IMO praying doesn't produce money, food or medicine (or a cure), so I feel its a wasted effort. Everyone needs hope, but I'm more of an active prayer. How can I actually do something about my plight, rather than praying for God to fix it?

[suse]

I don't know that many people of faith would agree that prayer is simply about asking God to 'fix' things as such, and of having a passive approach to life, my understanding is that self-determination is recognised in most theistic faiths, hence the human capacity for free-will. (ETA: I'm happy to be corrected if this is not the case)

Being non-religious does not necessarily mean that you are agnostic or atheist though, and there are many people who have some form of faith without following an organised religion.

The principle tenet of agnosticism is knowledge, whereas the principle tenet of theism/atheism is belief. As a philosophical position rather than a statement of faith, agnosticism is independent to theism, in that one can follow a theistic doctrine or have belief in a god without claiming to have or wishing to have knowledge of the existence of that god. Although it at first seems contrary in nature, it can be argued that the very notion of faith is by definition agnostic - insofar as faith is belief without knowledge, and thus all theists are also agnostic.

Another good explanation of the agnostic position is this (from aboutatheism website):

Philosophically, agnosticism can be described as being based upon two separate principles. The first principle is epistemological in that it relies upon empirical and logical means for acquiring knowledge about the world. The second principle is moral in that it insists that we have an ethical duty not to assert claims for ideas which we cannot adequately support either through evidence or logic.

and

Agnosticism can be classified in a similar manner to atheism: 'Weak' agnosticism is simply not knowing or having knowledge about god(s) - it is a statement about personal knowledge. The weak agnostic may not know for sure whether god(s) exist but does not preclude that such knowledge can be obtained. 'Strong' agnosticism, on the other hand, is believing that knowledge about god(s) is not possible - this, then, is a statement about the possibility of knowledge.

[echidna]

Well I don't really read into things. I honestly didn't know the definitions of the terms, and I wasn't really interested anyway. But, I guess I am more agnostic than athiest. More of a weak than a strong agnostic. I don't not believe in a higher power, but I feel there could be one, but I don't feel they need my worship. When I have actively prayed, my life was no better than when I am not praying. I don't believe in miracles. I am a scientific person, and everything can be explained. If things cannot be explained, given time and more knowledge of the universe, it will become explained. Look at history, magic and blasphemy were science, and those that did not understand were afraid and persecution ensued etc. After the dark ages, science was popular again, especially in the health field. Everyone wanted to see a doctor to cure ails, rather than the priest for a blessing.

One of the most famous miracles, Jesus walking on water. I just keep saying to myself, he was walking on a sandbar. That's if Jesus ever existed. If there is no proof, then it is likely to not be true. I believe in the theory of evolution. So much evidence. To believe that Adam and Eve were the first people, to me, is preposterous. They had two sons, one of which killed the other. How the heck does the human race develop from that family? And furthermore, there would have been very little genetic difference, leading to birth defects. Its beyond me.

I respect that many many people believe in a faith. To believe that someone or something is moving the pieces of life in place and so forth is important to many people, who feel that something must explain what they cannot explain. I believe there is a good chance there is a higher power, but I have less than heresay in a form of evidence. Sometimes a coincidence or event is just too odd to have happened naturally. But I try not to think that it is a higher power who performed it, as I have no evidence.

I get the occasional whisper, I guess similar to being psychic. I don't believe I am psychic, but sometimes I get a whisper, a yes or no question, without warning or reason to dispute. I only have a moment to make the decision before an event. I do not know what the event is. When I was younger, a tree fell against the house. A branch went through the open window, and moments before, I had a whisper: go over and get that block. So I did. Had I not moved, the tree branch would have gone through my face. Every now and then I get whispers. Another time was when I was in high school. I was fooling around with my boyfriend in my bedroom with the door closed. My top was undone. I had a whisper, do up your shirt and stop fooling around. I did that. Sat on my bed reading, and Mum opened the door with force, glaring at me. But I wasn't doing anything wrong. Had I not done what the whisper said, I would have been sorely punished.

DD is upset, back later.