Save Our Sleep

[Deltadawn]

THIS IS LIKELY TO OFFEND ...... SORRY IN ADVANCE.

I'm just wondering how many of you have actually read the book start to finish or are you just making snap judgements on what others have said because they have read a chapter here or there? Someone says it is a form of CC and you just believe them? Either read the book in its entirity or keep your ill-informed opinions to yourself. If you have read the book, and you feel it isnt for you, then that is great. I'm sure your opinions are appreciated.

I bought this book for my then 13 month old DS1, used her techniques and within four nights he was sleeping through (HAPPILY) and we have never looked back!! I also used it with DS2 right from his first night in hospital and he has slept through almost from 4 weeks old (again HAPPILY).

And can I say that almost everyone I come across asks how I have managed to have two kids who sleep so well, are so happy and well adjusted and who enjoy going to bed. I also have a two year old that does not throw tantrums. They have suffered NO negativity because of this book whatsoever.

If you're in two minds, please give it a chance. It has worked very well for us and I have recommended it to numerous friends of mine too who have also experienced positive outcomes.

And to that person, who moves her book to another area ... how dare you !!!! Your opinions are yours only. Not everyone agrees with you.

I understand that BB is a gentle parenting site but I stand by this book 100%.

(Like I said, sorry!!!)

[issy02]

Delatdawn - im glad you have found success in using this book, however, having studied child development from birth to 12 years in both of my degrees, I can say with absolute conviction that her methods go against all child development theories. Im sure there are people out there who have used her methods and have happy well adjusted children, however, there are many who do not.
I have read the book cover to cover, and was astounded at the lack of supporting research in children's cognitive and social/emotional development used to support her methods. She calls herself an expert... an expert who does not touch on current understanding of children's emotional development or attachment theories is not an expert in my opinion. An expert is well researched and uses developmental theories to back up her their own theories.
As for success in having children sleep through the night from an early age - Read the current research by James McKenna (children's natural sleeping patterns), or the attachment theories of mother and child by John Bowlby (attachment and the sleeping environment). Current research suggests that nature designed babies to NOT sleep through the night. Breastmilk is high in sugar and quickly digested, prompting young infants to wake often to feed. This is natural and normal and the way nature intended to keep infants attached/close to their mother and sleep safely. There is too much to explain but I suggest you read more literature on the matter. You may be surprised!

[Trillian]

Yes I have read her book. I read it years ago after I borrowed if from my local library to see what all the fuss was about. Why would you assume (and quite rudely too I might add) that we didn't? Although I do have to question why you chose to use her methods on a newborn. Newborns are meant to wake up regularly it is what they do.

ETA - I also wanted to add that I used to read her monthly column in Practical Parenting magazine, which appeared month after month with no other sleep advice form anyone else. Myself and a few others from BB got organised and wrote letters to the Editor of PP and requested that they didn't use TH every single month as it wasn't giving mothers other options and they might think that TH was the ONLY way kwim. Our letters worked and she was dropped as their sleep expert and they started using advice from other people as well.

[EsJay]

i have to say, and my opinion may not be wanted here, but i will give it, that i joined bb to give support to other women, and to gain support when i really need it. to have other mothers tell me that what im doing is psychologically damaging to my child, wrong and evil is horrific for me to hear. I never felt TH said i was doing it wrong when i read the book (cover to cover), but when i read your comments well i have never felt more criticised and judged in my life. isnt this site supposed to be about positive support? there are ways to say things and ways not to. perhaps something like, "for those who arent so sure about TH's methods have you thought of reading Pinky McKay or another author" or "If you thought SOS was good for you, do you know about these other authors/methods etc i found them great, and they may also be of assistance to you and give you a different spin on things?" wouldn't these sorts of comments be more rational and helpful?

As a first time mother, i felt completely lost, i was at the point where i thought i couldnt go on, sleep deprivation (my DD only slept 3 hours total of any given 24 hour period from 2-6weeks) emotionally exhausted from the 9 yes without exageration, 9 hours of ear piercing, inconsolable screaming each day (which was diagnosed as "colic"), the 12 hours of bf each day, lack of support from my DH, no milk till day 9, then low supply which meant when i wasnt bf i was pumping to build my supply up, mastitis for over a week, the list goes on, all of these things meant i was at my wits end, and honestly considered walking away from it all. then i read sos, it made some sense, i didnt believe it worked but i was willing to try anything. from sos i gained a lot of good tips for winding/"colic", reflux (later my dd was diagnosed with this hence the screaming early on), recognising tired signs, understanding my dd's cries and what they signalled, the need for day sleeps etc. i kept getting told to recognise the tired signs, and read the type of cry, however saying that to a first time mother is like the pav metaphor in earlier posts, you say i need eggs and strawberries, but what do i do with them?? in other words, what specifically are the tired signs? what types of cries are there and how do you distinguish them? sos lists things to watch and listen for and made me more aware of my dd's needs. i had also decided to give up bf (with great distress to me) at 6 weeks, once i put her on sos i found the energy to push through bf problems and continue it, i felt as though a weight had been lifted, my dd actually slept, which allowed me to rest too! i let her cio for one night, after that i never had to for weeks as she simply didnt cry anymore. she now has a cry often, however shes teething so im pretty sure that explains that, i dont use cio on her now. anyway my point is, some of the posts in this thread are not supportive to other mothers, there are people who have said read it with an open mind, and i agree, as there may be something that you take away from reading sos, even if all you get from it is "it's not for me".

i have read recently some pinky mckay stuff, and i found her "top up before you go to bed" distinctly similar to TH's dreamfeed, among other things i found had similarities. I think theres something to be said for ALL so called "experts" and if you choose to do some research and get some tips from these "experts" theres no reason you cant take a tip from each of them that suits you and fits your family best and give it a try.

[issy02]

the thing is jen, the dreamfeed, also know as the top up feed, was known and discussed long before th put it in her book. she did not discover that! we are not here to put other mothers down, only to discuss the points in her book.

[Trillian]

Jen, not one single person has said directly to another person that they are damaging their child. We are saying that TH's advice is damaging to children. We know that not one single parent would harm their child and they use parenting advice from books with the very best of intentions. If it worked, that's awesome, and to be completely fair gentle methods don't work for all children too. They don't read the same books as we do, do they? So you do have to do what works for you, but is it really necessary to leave a child cry for hours? Is it really necessary to let a baby cry because they are hungry just because a book tells you they aren't ready for another feed yet? Her books, and others like it go against the very nature of what it is to be human kwim? She doesn't have to say directly that you are doing the wrong thing, but she maintains that her ways work so she doesn't HAVE to say it. By telling you that you your baby must go to sleep at a certain time when they are wide awake and you might want to have a bit of quality time with your baby because they are wide awake, doesn't that mean that therefore what you are doing is wrong?

If you are happy 100% with the way it has worked out for you then thats wonderful, it really is, but you cannot let yourself get offended when other people call it how they see it because it is not a judgement call on anyone at all, even though we may not ever understand why people like her so much. ANd you're right, BB is a gentle parenting site and you will never, ever see TH's and others methods endorsed on this website.

[EsJay]

i realise she didnt discover it, im saying they are the same thing....
i feel it detrimental to a mothers health to read that what shes doing is evil and psychologically damaging. i think the wording of some posts makes them come across in a different manner to how they are meant.
i will continue to do things my way, with a little of this and a little of that, and a lot of whatever works for my dd, regardless of anyones opinion. i do hope others wont change what works for them just because a few people told them its evil

[Deltadawn]

Thanks Jen, you seem to understand what I'm saying. No one should be punished for choosing to bring their children up in certain ways. I found something that worked for me and it seems I am crucified for it every time I mention it on BB. While BB wont encourage it, we should still feel free to discuss it. BB doesnt encourage FF either but there is a thread for it.

Issy02 - You use the word "theories" a lot in your post. That is all they are - theories. If you are from a research background like I am, you will no doubt agree that they will be disproven at some point anyway so why base your whole belief system on it? Remember when the world was flat? Remember when smoking was healthy? Having worked at one of Brisbane's major hospitals for 7 years in clinical trials (I also studied child development as part of my health degree) I have no faith in studies/trials whatsoever, usually not worth the paper they are written on. At the end of the day, my personal research has shown that 100% of my subjects (my two boys) are happy and healthy and if I can help others enjoy that, I will (and I have). I even take special note NOT to read studies that have been published because they are usually rubbish.

Trillian - I'm sorry you found my post to be rude but for 3.5 years that I've been on BB I've been holding my tongue and have never felt like I've been able to express my views unless it adheres to the BB guidelines of gentle parenting. I did this time. If this truly was a supportive environment, we should be able to openly discuss it without worry of such posts.

I'm with Jen. I will continue to do things the way that is working for me and will continue to suggest it to others who need help. Afterall, that is what a supportive forum is all about, isnt it?

[EsJay]

trillian i didnt see your post before i posted last, no i dont think its necessary for a baby to be left crying for hours, and i also dont think it necessary to make them wait for a feed, tbh i dont know a single person in my life who would do that.
i do know many who follow sos and love it, and have not had to let their baby cio, wait for a feed, or anything of a similar nature.

i dont expect this site to endorse anything, but as deltadawn said i feel i should be free to discuss whatever methods i want to, without fear of people telling me my methods are damaging my child (yes my methods because if i use THs methods they then become my methods, and therefore you are putting ME down as well as her) perhaps this is why i just dont post anywhere normally except my baby buddies, who are tactful in their dislike of what i do.
perhaps this section on routines should be removed or renamed if the only routines you can freely discuss are those that conform to gentle parenting ideals.

i have introduced feed to sleep as i felt dd needed the comfort at bedtime, and while it works to put her to sleep, i now cannot leave her with anyone, i have to be with her at bedtime as she will not settle for anyone bar me, which has caused problems, especially as i have been asked to return to work early, so as you say gentle parenting methods have their disadvantages/dont work for everyone as well.

edit: i wanted to say if you read the book years ago perhaps some of it has changed since you read it, this years revision is different to the one i had on loan which was a few yrs old. i recall a line in both versions "never ignore an emotional cry, go strait to your baby and comfort them" so she doesnt say to leave your baby regardless. also my DH's DD used to stick her fingers down her throat and make herself sick in protest of bedtime (regardless of the time), just so she could stay up and watch tv, so some children do do these things for absolutely no reason, im sure its rare but it does happen.

[Livinthedream]

Deltadawn, Meh, dont let it get to you.
I read SOS, and I have used parts of it.
I did hold my baby out for the next feed because it meant 100mls every 2 hrs 24/7 OR 200mls every 4.
I got sick of preparing 12 bottles a day, not to mention the waste when I wasnt sure what he wanted and fed him JIC.
I did let my bubs CIO for the first time, after that, he got better with each sleep and by day 2 of this regime,was settling straight away.
My bubs doesnt feed to sleep, he doesnt need to. He will go to sleep anywhere and for anyone.
I also CHOSE to formula feed my bubs, I tried BF for about a week and I couldnt stand it.
I dont feel guilty for any of my parenting choices, thats why I dont feel the need to justify them.
Hell, there are 100's of threads on this site about "gentle parents" who havent had a full nights sleep in years.
You and I arent one of them, and that is good enough for me

[Trillian]

So what if some of them aren't getting a full night sleep? They are meeting their childs needs the way they think is best, just as you are. From your tone it sounds like you think you are superior for doing it that way? Babies and children are not an inconvenience that at all times must fit in around us, so we don't lose out on sleep. I would like to know what you would do though if you have another child who does not fit this method at all. Would you persevere and force your baby to do something they don't want to do or would you think that maybe there is another way? The point that we were trying to make at the beginning of this thread was that not one single person who claims to use TH, uses the methods right down to the last letter, and the reason? Because we have children, not machines that we can program to do exactly what a schedule says to do, so that is why you read so much of people who take bits and pieces that work for them.

[issy02]

Deltadawn - These 'theories' I speak of are incredibly important insights into how babies and children develop and behave. They have been studied for a hell of a long time and are what childrens services, and educators base their practice on. Just by saying they are crap and not worth the paper they are written on, demonstrates to me you know nothing about them!!!!!!!! And the ones I speak of HAVE NOT BEEN DISPROVEN...quite the opposite, they have been proven through years and years of observations and research THAT IS NOT OUT TO GAIN A PROFIT!...but rather to gain insight into the psychological development of children. They are not trials!!!! Child development is my profession...and the small part you probably studied as part of your health degree is obviously tokenistic and poorly delivered. Its interesting to me that you would rather take the word of an inexperienced...poorly researched, MARKETER, out to gain a profit...over the word of numerous behavioral psychologists who base their findings on years and years of observations and study simply to understand the human functioning.

[Shanti]

I bought this book for my then 13 month old DS1, used her techniques and within four nights he was sleeping through (HAPPILY) and we have never looked back!! I also used it with DS2 right from his first night in hospital and he has slept through almost from 4 weeks old (again HAPPILY).

And can I say that almost everyone I come across asks how I have managed to have two kids who sleep so well, are so happy and well adjusted and who enjoy going to bed. I also have a two year old that does not throw tantrums. They have suffered NO negativity because of this book whatsoever.

Delta, I'd like to just add something regarding what you've said in the above here.
Nope I have not read this book so I am not going to comment on the book as such however going by all the comments it does not sound like the type of book that I would follow as I 'parent out of instinct' here. That's the best way for our family and the way nature intended.

I would like to add however.... you say your 2yr old doesn't have tantrums? You say this like it's a good thing? Well, it's quite NORMAL for 2yrs old's to have tantrums anyway did you know that?
According to Dr Margot Sunderland (a well known child psychologist)..... "the too-good child who does not have tantrums may have learned early on that expressing big feelings elicits a frightening parental response, and that the price of parental love is total compliance. She explains that the too-good child misses out on vital brain sculpting, meaning that when he faces frustration in later life, he may respond with angry outbursts or struggle to be assertive.

Just something for you to think about.

Also..... it's VERY normal for babies to wake often in the night... it's natures way of keeping them safe (ie from SIDS etc) and close to their parents.. my 13mth old DD still wakes often in the night.... yes we are tired but we manage and we know that one day when she is developmentally ready to, in her own time, she WILL sleep through and she'll be a happy baby for that

There is no competition as to when babies sleep through the night.... .all in THEIR own time. You can't force them to. And if you do.... how do you even know what effect it really does have on them??

Something else for you to think about. But your kids are your kids.... you parent how YOU feel it's right for you and your family so each to their own I guess

[issy02]

and might I add....all the theorists and child psychologists I speak of are continually discussed and used as a basis for practice, at University. Never heard of TH whilst at university though....funny that!

Shanti - tantrums are absolutely a NORMAL part of toddlerhood. They are an important part of a child's developing brain, allowing them to test boundaries, express emotion and take risks. They also assist in teaching them how to express their emotion more effectively, with adult guidence. You are 100% correct in what you raised here. Good on you!!!!

[Ginger]

Well pointed out Shanti, i think that a 2 year old who never tantrums may feel as though their voice is not worth being heard.


If the book has worked for you, then that's great. But BB was originally created as a gentle parenting website and this book goes against that philosophy. So of course many members on here are not going to like it.
I have read the book. My MCHN actually suggested it to our mothers group when ds1 was a baby. I borrowed it off a friend who had it and was quite horrified and upset. I have never studied child development, but alarm bells were ringing so loud in my head. I am so glad that BB directed me towards reading 'The Science of Parenting'. This has become my fave parenting book and i'm often reading bits out aloud to DH. No, we haven't slept properly for 2.5 years now, but i'm sure we'll have plenty of time to catch up on that later on when our kids are older.

[Shanti]

'The Science of Parenting'. This has become my fave parenting book and i'm often reading bits out aloud to DH. No, we haven't slept properly for 2.5 years now, but i'm sure we'll have plenty of time to catch up on that later on when our kids are older.

ooooh I have just started reading this book!! Since I finished my pinky book

Ginger, you're right. We have plenty of time later on to sleep.... as tiring and as hard as it can be waking in the night to our little ones, thats just what you do as loving parents isn't it? And they are only little once... night time cuddles are precious and part of the bonding that occurs between parents and lil' ones.

[Ginger]

yep i agree Shanti. i'm making the most of the cuddles with my boys at the moment. I often lie there just taking in the moment, particularly as we are not having any more kids, so i really want to savour this time when they are so young.
i've read all of pinky's books too. i think they're great.
The science of parenting really spells things out in a simple way i think, and just confirms everything we're already doing. it's great to have it as a source of support.

[MantaRay]

I have tried very hard not to post in here. But here I am!

I have read the entire book. I didn't follow it and I don't like it but each to their own. I have two boys that are brilliant sleepers, very independent, great manners and fantastic eaters. I am always getting comments about them - DS2's family day carer just can't believe how grown up, happy and helpful DS2 is and how well he eats and sleeps. So I guess that can happen without SOS

My reason for posting however, is that I get quite concerned when I read about babies sleeping through from 4 weeks. Babies should not be sleeping through at this age - usually it is a sign that they are not getting enough milk and are too sleepy to wake up. The whole physiology of babies and breast feeding is that babies feed often, and that night feeds are particularly important. DD, if you are happy with the results you achieved then that's great. But I think it's important to point this information out for other mums so that they are not setting themselves unrealistic and potentially dangerous expectations.

And now I'll bow out.