Do you judge other peoples parenting?

[Neenee Jellybeanie]

About my friends boyfriend; he's not allowed to work with children but he's allowed to be around them. He has contact with his other children (who claimed they were abused by him - and he has a fair few kids, too! He admitted to abusing a child who wasn't his genetically) and that's legal also. The only time the oh-so-brilliant Department of Child Protection would intervene is if he actually hurt her baby. It has occured to me to alert the authorities because there are other dodgy goings-on related to them living together but that would not help her child in the slightest so I don't really see the point. He cannot have custody of his children but has supervised visitation, but children he has not abused (yet) are not considered to be in danger.

[LimeSlice]

I judge in a second... then I force myself to stop.

Ever read To Kill A Mockingbird? There's a bloke in that who constantly drinks from a glass bottle in a brown paper bag. When Scout actually talks to him, she finds that it's just cocacola, society has judged that due to his lifestyle choices (a white man living with a black woman) he must be a drunk. And the sad thing is, he goes along with it because it's too hard to make others see that an alternative choice is valid.

I don't want to be a member of that sort of society.

Yes, I don't agree with all my friends' parenting choices. They don't agree with mine. But short of harming the child (or maybe getting a paedophile boyfriend and letting him live with your child!) I try to temper my judgement with understanding. You choose to give your child cola? I don't get that: my DS is hypersensitive to caffeine. It's not good for you. I'm not going to sympathise too much if your cola'd up child doesn't sleep well. But sometimes if a child is refusing to drink anything apart from cola it's the best thing. Do you want a dehydrated child?

CCing isn't good. But some people don't realise that, let alone realise there are other options. It's so much a pushed thing. Thinking CCing at 6 weeks old just isn't right... but that's a societial problem rather than something I should judge a mother on. If it were legal to murder your DH for saying something stupid most women would be widows within a month of making their vows. And we wouldn't judge negatively because that's legal. Then someone says "hey, you can talk it through!" and her marriage lasts over a month! Crazy woman! But would that woman judge the husband-killers negatively? Of course not, that's societal norm.

I try to remember this when I see things I disagree with. My ideas aren't law and a good thing too because I don't always live up to them. And I don't live up to them in public all the time. I don't want to be judged on the off days so I try to think nice thoughts about others too.

Yes, I do whinge a bit on BB about things I dislike. And get on my high horse. But I know I'm not perfect and have spectacular falls.

I don't agree with CCing, but last night just lay in bed and shouted through the wall "just go back to sleep, won't you?" and waited a minute before dragging myself out of bed. There are those who would say that's CCing and a bad thing - making DS wait for me for no real reason (other than it was very cold and I was tired and it wasn't the first wake-up - so no real reason).

I don't agree with a parent putting themselves first all the time, yet if I'm honest what are DH and I doing by having me study and then return to work? We are putting our wants first: bigger house, maybe more children, nice holidays (and yes, eating nice meals: I'm sure we could survive somehow now DH has a payrise but we don't want to stuggle any more)... DS is happy in nursery else we wouldn't do it, but it's still putting ourselves first.

So yes, I judge. But I try my best to temper it with reason, even within my head.

But living with a paedophile? I'd be calling the social services and the police about that one! Why would you even want to be friends with a guy you knew was a paedophile, let alone date him? I know that's judging but I can't find anything nice to say about paedophiles.

:yeahthat:

I wanted to write something, as I do many things most people dont agree with....And I think many people do A LOT of things that I dont agree with....

But then I read RF's post, and well, of someone has already said it better than you could have, why bother trying to better it?? lol

[paradise lost]

"Maybe you should pick him up, at 4 days old he's NOT being a manipulative criminal but you might turn him into one if you ignore him!"

OMG i must re-iterate that that is my mean inner voice and not the one i talk out loud with! And in fact i know several kids who were CC'd and though they aren't all that close with their parents (which to ME is strange because i expect toddlers and young kids to still have a strong parental bond) they aren't criminals. I would also say that for me in my judgementalism there is a MASSIVE difference between the mum doing something completely at odds to me after careful research and loving consideration and the woman doing exactly the same because she can't be bothered looking at the effects or alternatives.

Take RH for example. She works and i don't. And i was lucky enough to read much of what she has written on BB about how she came to be in that situation and how she makes the situation work for her, and even though she's doing what i wouldn't do in the factual sense, because i know why and how and so on (and how SHE feels about it too), i don't judge her for a second, and in fact i applaud her (and i don't say so often enough - RH you rock!) because i know she didn't choose her situation but she's making a silk purse from it anyway and in her situation i would hope to do it EXACTLY as she is doing it. But the mum who said to me at toddler group, while i cuddled her 2 month old baby that she had heard bad stories about the childcare centre she was going to use but that she figured even if they were true her son would never remember and after all she'd much rather be at work and let someone else "deal with all his crap", well i'm never going to feel she's doing the thing i would do in that situation!

I suppose that's why i don't take my own judgementalism too seriously, because 90% of the time the person doing differently to you is just doing what they know to be best in their situation, and that actually they might not be at ALL happy to be in that situation in the first place but they are in it and they have to deal as best they can. But there is no way i can get a woman living with a known paedophile into that catergory!

Bx

[Trillian]

I don't really judge someone for what they do, but more the lack of commonsense you see surrounding those things is what frustrates me - like coke in bottles and hot chips for infants to suck on and that sort of thing. I think juice in a bottle is just as bad as coke, but plenty of parents believe it to be the better option kwim? So for all intents and purposes they are trying to do the *right* thing.

I would never judge someone simply because they do things differently to what I do - whether that be cc or what they feed their kids or smoking etc, because often they are so resolute in what they are doing that even if you said cc has been proven to harm your baby, then they would probably still do it anyway - especially if it's working for them. For example, there was a boy in my DS's class last year who had a lunch order everyday the canteen was open - it was only 3 days a week though - but even though this child didn't exactly have a nutritious lunch on those days (I have no idea what he had on the other two days) does that make his Mum someone to be judged? She might be a little lazy in preferring to write on a paper bag and put the money in instead of making him something healthier, but definately not a bad Mum.

I like to give most people the benefit of the doubt, because they might just not know any better, particularly if they don't have positive parenting role models in their life kwim? And we don't see what goes on behind closed doors - we only make assumptions based on the 5 minutes we see these people at the shops etc. For all we know they could go home and be cooked a huge plate of meat and vege for dinner, and then tucked into bed and read a story by Mum or Dad. Unless of course they are doing something that is obviously harming their children - then I get really cranky

[queenbee]

Yes I do judge but at things like coke for kids, smoking in cars with kids in there and swearing at children. I was putting my DD in the car the other day and I heard a loud yell "tamika, don't you fu**ing cross that road you little b*tch". It scared the cr*p outta me. I literally jumped. The poor little girl was crying and I really felt for her. I am not proud to be judgemental. But I can't help it. Children are so innocent

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Bless you Bec, you're lovely!

I can't judge for giving a child a "bad" drink - my DS loves white wine (not that he's allowed it, he just steals mine) and I used to give him cow juice, which hurt his little tummy. I know I'll get hate mail for the wine but not for the milk - but the milk is worse! I don't agree with giving a child cola and I don't drink it myself, but I can't judge for it. WHAT IF the parents don't know how awful it is? What if the child stole the drink of cola one day and now won't drink anything else?

Smoking is very addictive. I'm not a smoker and I don't approve of it, but it can be awful to quit. I don't want people smoking around children but the anti-smoking laws are pushing smokers to children (children and smokers in the beer gardens, please!) and if you are addicted then why punish people for a mistake started years ago that they may not want to continue? I must admit, I have lower tolerance for smokers now I've gone back to Uni and there are more of them though! Horrid habit. But one I'm happy I do not hold an addiction to. I have spoken with people who want to quit but just can't. I don't have an addictive sort of personality/genetics so can't fully understand, but I do realise it's hard.

Swearing is a method of communication. One that sounds foul to many ears. But people grow up with it and don't realise. "Dang it all to heck!" may seem more refined, but it is just culture: some people don't have parents who moderate their language or have any refinement. For some reason, DS seems to say "track!" when he's annoyed (usually, I think, because his Brio track is broken which causes the most upsets)... now that could sound a whole lot worse! I think toddlers swearing is just awful to hear, but the parents of swearing toddlers can't see a problem: it is their everyday language. Just as I don't think Liebling speaking to me in French or German is a problem. (Although Spanish, Italian, Latin, old Greek and Mandarin is... because I can't speak much of those! He's picked it up from both me and the TV, but I'd rather he learn a language fluently rather than the odd word here and there that I do and that he has picked up from me.)

I tell Liebling "No! Stop!" [take DS away from the road] "Don't cross the road my precious; it's dangerous. Cars are hurty if you bump into them!" He is in tears. I have stopped him doing something. It's not the language used, it's the "no" quite often. He may cross the road WITH me, holding my hand so that I'm kept safe, but only when there are no cars. We must both check.

I know a lot of people judge me negatively for letting DS cross a road which cars use frequently (but not a busy road). I have people thinking I can't be his mother because I let him walk around so much! He's not yet 2 and 90% of the time he stops at the pavement and grabs my hand, looks for cars, waits for me to OK crossing the road then crosses safely, quickly and without bother. 10% of the time he doesn't and boy do I get judged for that!

I may not like others' parenting, but I always try to think "this person did not wake up this morning and think now how shall I scar my child for life today?" when I get judgemental. Because I have faced quite a bit of it on the other side of the fence - for babywearing (mollycoddling/spoiling/uncomfortable for mum and bub/too poor for a pushchair - yup, major criticism where I live!), BFing past... well birth in some cases, not CCing, co-sleeping... now we all think that's acceptable parenting here but others do not agree. And those people believe that they are giving me the best possible advice and I don't know about their ideas, which is why I'm not doing them. I've had a lot of positive feedback in the local area for what I do too, particularly babywearing, but I've had some stupid stuff said too.

[Smoke Jaguar]

I would also say that for me in my judgementalism there is a MASSIVE difference between the mum doing something completely at odds to me after careful research and loving consideration and the woman doing exactly the same because she can't be bothered looking at the effects or alternatives.

Yep - this is one I will silently think "who wouldn't look into what's best for their child?". Then I realise that a lot of people assume that the way most other people do things MUST be good, or they wouldn't do it, and don't have access to the people and resources who can illuminate them better.
The other thing I wanted to add to my own post was that when I 'judge' it is with compassion for both the parents and the children in question. Like with my former friends - I have compassion for the older child (the younger escapes criticism for his personality because he conforms better to what the dad wants of him) as well as for the father, because the father, I know, never wanted to turn out like his old man...and from all reports, he has become alarmingly similar in his punitive parenting and non-acceptance of his son's more creative and sensitive personality (he's 'off with the fairies' and is now more self-conscious of that because he's not unreservedly loved for what he naturally is )
I think if you're caring about the effects of someone's parenting and doing it from a heartspace and not a headspace, there needn't be a negative connotation to 'judgmental'. Headspace judgment where you think your way is just better cos you do it, is a bit of a pitfall I'd like to avoid and if I fall into it, it's not a judgment I'd ever act on. If you're feeling your parenting honours your child's spirit in comparison to someone else's practises and you are conflicted over how to share that ethic with a parent who seems to have disconnected from their instincts (as opposed to their conditioned ideas of parenting), it's not a bad thing at all. In fact, it's a more positive energy and you're likely to create a ripple effect, somehow, instead of being instructional

[HotI]

About my friends boyfriend; he's not allowed to work with children but he's allowed to be around them. He has contact with his other children (who claimed they were abused by him - and he has a fair few kids, too! He admitted to abusing a child who wasn't his genetically) and that's legal also. The only time the oh-so-brilliant Department of Child Protection would intervene is if he actually hurt her baby. It has occurred to me to alert the authorities because there are other dodgy goings-on related to them living together but that would not help her child in the slightest so I don't really see the point. He cannot have custody of his children but has supervised visitation, but children he has not abused (yet) are not considered to be in danger.

The Department of Child Protection can not intervene if they don't know that he is living there. This would be the point of you (who have the knowledge) of notifying them. If getting the authorities involved prevents or stops a child from continuing abuse then you would be helping the child in a big way.

If he has access to this child, and the mother is not able or willing to protect the child then notification may give the child a chance. The mother may be able to given resources, or information so she feels able to, and understand her role to protect the child. And if the mother is not able to fulfill her role then someone needs to protect the child.

I don't think there is a need to comment on other parents parenting styles that may differ with no immediate danger to the child, but in this case the child needs to be protected.

[~Raven~]

Yes I'm judgemental with certain things. I'm not with others as I totally understand bad days happen as I've had many of those.

[rufalina]

Interesting thread....

I do look and judge, but all my judgment is kept internal (or winged to DH in private), unless I can see real harm to a child.

The only exception I have to this rule, is an agreement I made with my sister when we were both pregnant together. We agreed that if we saw each other doing something that just didn't feel right, or that we wanted to offer advice on, we were able to do so, in a constructive positive way, but we were not allowed to get angry or offended by the comment/suggestion, and similarly, if the comment / suggestion was not taken on board, we were not allowed to harp on about it. And to date, my sis and I and our babies are getting along very well. We have both been able to support and help each other out.

[Smoke Jaguar]

We risk becoming like child protection services if we only see fit to broach something if it's a physical threat to a child. If a child is fed and clothed and not physically abused, a child is not deemed to be under threat. If that child is ignored, sent to childcare so that the parents dont' have to engage emotionally with him or her, relegated quite obviously in favour of another child, it just doesn't register as important. That child's psychological wellbeing just doesn't rate because we can't SEE it happening. Yet that psychological wellbeing will affect the child's adulthood as much, of not more profoundly, than physical circumstances, if the physical doesn't already compound the psychological.
Watching a child's face as it crumbles, watching that child crumble inside, not knowing anymore WHAT he can do to be accepted by his father except lash out and say over and over again, like a mantra, that he hates his father and wishes he could kill him (the child was 5 at the time and otherwise a sweet, imaginative kid) is not something I like to just sit back and reserve judgment on. In this instance (this really happened), the mother was crying and saying she didn' tknow what to do, knowing that she didn't have the strength to stand up for the child whilst it was happening and not knowing how to respond to the child once it had already happened. I took this as an invitation to advise, and advised her to be all the love she could be so that at least her son would know who he could turn to. Only, she can't do this properly, either, because her DH becomes infantile when she doesn't 'support' him and she's left on her own - cold-shouldered and belittled ("you're just like your mother", he'll say to the boy) by her husband and distrusted by her son for her ability to protect his spirit. When you feel your own heart cracking into little pieces watching this happen before your eyes, I defy you to keep your 'judgment' to yourself about something that won't land a kid in hospital
Honestly, if you can grab a copy of The Natural Child and read its chapter on standing up for children, it might change the way you react to these situations.
So, yes, there are times I do judge parenting, and not because they're not parenting like I would, but because they're parenting in a way that is harming their child, in visible ways, or internalised ways.

[Glamourcide]

^ I definitely agree with that sentiment. I'm shameless enough to put my two cents' in when I see something that I think is *really* wrong, and that's not restricted to physical or sexual abuse - in my book, that poor child's (and his mother's) treatment by that man would count as clear emotional abuse and I would be sticking my beak in, regardless of what it did to my friendship with the people in question.

And in fact i know several kids who were CC'd and though they aren't all that close with their parents (which to ME is strange because i expect toddlers and young kids to still have a strong parental bond) they aren't criminals.

I get where you're coming from, but I really doubt that CCing or other small aspects of their parenting is what has led to the children not having a strong bond with their parents (of course, this is just my personal opinion, I don't know the people in question so of course you're free to tell me to shut my pipe and stay out of it!!). I think most of the time it comes down to the personalities of mum, dad and child, and parenting as a whole rather than 'I blame *this*' or 'You did *that* wrong'. Just for instance, DD has the closest bond I could imagine possible with DH and I, she adores us just as much as we adore her and she never, ever hesitates to come to us, to cuddle with us, to give us kisses and show her affection for us. We did do a small amount of CC with her, and we never co-slept (purely because DH and I are extremely heavy sleepers and I could never have forgiven myself if she'd ended up smothered or something while I was comatose, I know the evidence suggests otherwise but DH nearly suffocated her with his arm once when I popped her in our bed to go warm her a bottle so I never took the risk) or had much to do with the gentle parenting concept (we did lots of research but basically we picked and chose what we thought would work for us, and tried out different things when we thought some stuff wasn't working, I think at this point we don't fit any particular concept or mould, we just dabble in this and that and see what works well for us); but a friend of mine who co-sleeps, picks her DS up before he even realises he's about to cry, and generally follows most principles of this gentle parenting movement (she's never read a book in her life that she wasn't required to do an essay on, but her DP gets mad if the kid makes a peep so she kills herself to keep him quiet and happy), her gorgeous little boy is very standoffish, doesn't like being touched or spoken to and just generally gives me the idea he wants to be alone most of the time. He's been that way pretty much since birth, just as my DD has been a cuddly, happy, loving and giving baby since the day DH cut the cord - I think their bonds with parents and others in their little world has much less to do with parenting styles or techniques, and a lot more to do with their individual personalities as well as things like their environment. An example of that is that DD is allowed to explore her world and get into mischief, and learn her limits - my friend's DS is pretty much stuck in his high chair or on a playmat every waking moment and if he ventures further than arm's reach, he's promptly put back where he started. It would seem quite stifling, I imagine!! That, and my relationship with DH is pretty good the majority of the time, so DD is growing up in a relaxed, loving home where she can see that mummy and daddy care about each other as much as they care about her. Meanwhile, my friend's relationship with her partner is pretty rocky, and her partner shows very little interest in her and his son - the poor kid can't bond with his dad even if he tries because his father is more worried about his video games and hanging out with his friends!

I just think every person, and every child, is different, and while a lot of people may not agree with the way I do things with DD, they are entitled to that but would have to be blind to see that it isn't working for us. That's why I tend to stay away from forums where things I don't necessarily agree with are discussed - everyone is welcome to their choices and I support that all the way, but it's not my choice to follow suit, no matter how popular or not it is, so I don't go around passing judgment on people who are sure they are doing the best for their kids. Good on them, I say, especially if they are taking the time to research and keep up with new information so they can keep reevaluating their parenting techniques and evolve.

Like I said, you know the people you're talking about much better than I do, obviously, but I tend to not really include parenting techniques as a cause, reason or explanation for certain behaviour in children unless it is the *only* thing I can see wrong with their life.

[mbear]

Defn judge others...esp when i hear comments like that.....

"tamika, don't you fu**ing cross that road you little b*tch".

....yer, yer, i know, i may not know what has gone on in that mothers life 24hrs beforehand, 1wk beforehand.....god knows what brings her to say such things to a little person, but i do judge. I will then go home and tell my DH or tell a close friend but i would never say anything to their face...

Ive been on the receiveng end though - and have been judged myself. I left my 3 girls in the car (winter time last year, May or June i think) and i ran into the bakery right outside my car to get a loaf of bread and milk. I noticed 2 women standing near my car smoking....i kept an eye on my car, paid for my bread and got in my car. I was asked 'are they your kids?'....'yes' i replied.....'you know its illegal to park and leave your kids in the car - esp around this area, we work for DOCS and if we see you do it again, we will report you'. I was speechless, and let me tell you i felt like the dirtiest, scumiest mother in the world. I went home to DH and literally bawled. I felt so ashamed of myself, ashamed of what those people thought of me, ashamed that i DID leave my children in the car for albeit 40 seconds, i felt ashamed that the good, proud, sensibble mother i am, was not displayed that day in society.....i do keep this experience in mind when i see the behaviour of other mothers....but yes, i still do judge.....

[myson]

mbear. did you ask for ID? i bet they didnt work for DOCS. lying judgemental cows...

ok. yep im a judgemental cow. i admit it. and i am a perfectionist. which makes my standards unbelievable high, for myself and others. my house is SPOTLESS. (check for updates on that when this bay is mobile )and if you come to visit me and put your keys and bag down in the wrong place it will nag at the back of my mind until you pick them up to leave. its a hard way to live but its me.

but knowing i am a judgemental perfectionist, admitting it, living with it, that is what teaches me to keep my mouth shut! ( i am also afraid of confrontation)

and i have to say JOINING BB. AND READING THE POSTS ON ALL DIFFERENT SUBJECTS FROM SO MANY VARIED PEOPLE, HAS MADE ME A BETTER PERSON.

YES i am still judgemental, but the side of me that stops to look at the other side of the coin has also grown and developed too.

[Glamourcide]

^ I think that's the main thing, at the end of the day. There's a difference between jumping on your high horse and galloping around thinking you're superior to everybody else, and being judgmental of others when making those judgments leads you to either look at your own methods and question them (usually just to make sure you're doing what you think is right), or to at least look at other people and say, 'I might do it differently, but that's okay'.

I too have found this forum has really opened my eyes to some different points of view on certain things, I love having such a huge network of such different, unique women in such different positions and stages of their lives, all with ideas, experiences and advice to share with others.

[loulabelle]

Interesting thread, Have only skimmed over responses.

My answer is yes and no.In cases like you have described and a child is in danger, I do judge.I had a Friend who deliberately got pregnant at 18 to her heroine addicted boyfriend.I wont go into detail but the friends mother works for DOCS and now has permanent custody of the little girl.While I still try and be there for the friend because I know she is a good person underneath, I just cant understand her choices.I wish i didn't judge in these cases because I don't know the whole story and I really suspect mental illness in her case.
Apart from this, when I am talking about general parenting issues, schools, sleeping arrangement,food etc.I don't judge those different for me.Every parent ultimately loves there child and are doing the best thing for them.Just because co-sleeping works for me, I understand it doesn't for others etc.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Just a couple of questions:

Did everyone here seriously research all their parenting choices before they made them? I only researched some things after I started doing it (such as co-sleeping and baby-lead weaning) and I've never read anything on potty training, just going with the flow (so to speak) there. For the most part, I do what comes naturally. I'm fairly sure what I did last night was a no-no (climb into a cotbed and go to sleep, letting DS not have much space in his own bed!) but didn't research it ever.

And I agree that emotional abuse is horrid, but can we do much bar stick up for the child and love the child? I agree, that is the thing to do. But many parents don't realise the mistakes their parents made and just copy. My sister wants to be just like my mum with her potential children (poor things). It's a hard one for me to comment on. Obviously bullying parents should be stopped but many don't realise there's a problem at all. Most bullies don't.

[mbear]

mbear. did you ask for ID? i bet they didnt work for DOCS. lying judgemental cows...

....nope i didnt...i was like a school child being scolded, i jumped into my car and drove off, wanting to die and be buried right there and then.


I loved your post Myson BTW....i agree, i put an awful lot of high expectations on myself, and i expect others to be at that highest point. I know its ridiculous. Sometimes i am my own worst enemy, but i agree with your comment about BB making you a better person. I too have become less judgemental, and kinda figure 'each to their own..'.....