Is your partner as well informed as you?

[Mummato2]

This type of thing is what perpetuates this attitude about blokes being the dopey ones sitting on the sidelines telling the woman to breathe etc. If you want to make it a one way street, I guess you shouldn't be surprised when the bloke isn't all that involved.

Actually I have to strongly disagree with this.

If I wanted (for example) a labour experience where I felt no pain and my husband was totally opposed to ME having an epidural - I would in no uncertain way tell him that it isn't his choice. He is certainly entitled to the opinion however it is ME going through the experience, pain - whatever and not him.

By all means husband's MUST be involved in the decision making, but ultimately it needs to be the woman's choice in how it goes.

This is just my opinion - as we are all entitled to one - good luck to those that believe their husbands get a say over a birthing body.

[slyder]

I didn't say all men were disengaged and stupid Slyder, I asked if they were as informed as the partners they are supporting, and whether some women felt let down because their partners didn't research. I didnt specifically mean men, I meant PARTNERS, or support persons.

I also don't think there have been many - if any - patronizing comments made in this thread, as generally people have been posting about their personal experiences.

I'm truly sorry if you have found this thread patronizing or offensive, but to come into a peaceful and intelligent discussion with guns blazing is not really the way to react, is it?

For my part, I started this thread after helping my sister write her birth plan, and her telling me that she knew she couldn't rely on her DH to support her, which she felt was because he refused to do ANY reading or listen to her thoughts on the matter. She felt unsupported for her last birth, so for this birth she has chosen her DH if he decides to come, myself, and a trainee midwife.

Berenice, there are no guns blazing, you've taken my post in a different manner than it was intended.

And none of my comments were directed at you. Your thread is an excellent one, and one worth having. A contrary opinion to some assertions in this thread doesn't mean we all have to get upset. I'm not upset.

[Persephone1]

My body, my birth. My DH is entitled to his opinion, and if he read anything about the birth then there would be more weight given to that opinion. But we're not buying a house together, I'm giving birth. I'm going to have to live with the decisions made during labour/birth more than DH.

My DH broke a bone last year, and we discussed his treatment options but it was his decision, which I supported. I wouldn't dare tell him what to do.

And this thread was never about men, it's about birth support on general: doulas/mw/ob/partners.

[Inanna]

Aaaah now that's opened up a whole other can of worms! Who has the final say - when the child is from you both but is still in the Woman's body????

I know you are not angry & you bring up good points Slyder - I honour your knowledge & commitment.

Slyder - I certainly don't think men are dopey & sit in the corner. I didn't say that nor infer it. I have observed men (& in fact birthing partners/support persons who are female) who just want to take the pain away. So, instead of trusting in the process & understanding it - they try to kindly and compassionately "save" their loved one...

I also know that there are many men who are wonderful, strong & passionate birth partners & advocates. However, that comes with much education, information & understanding. Some women are stating that their partners don't inform themselves... In this case or in the case where a couple are not in sync with regard to birthing rights, rites & process I am suggesting that it can be better for them not to be present...

Just as if a man was fully into homebirthing - perhaps he was birthed at home or he observed siblings being birthed at home... It would be perhaps obscure & uncomfortable for him to fully support a partner who elects for a c/section... Just throwing that into the mix...

As for who has the final say... I have to say I personally believe that it is my body & I will decide. I think personally it is unacceptable for a partner to expect his wishes for a birth to be thrust upon me. That is largely because I believe it is my right to birth as I believe is safe & correct for me with that birth. I also believe that birth is a rite of passage - it is more than a physical separation from my fetus - it is a sacred event that is integral to my journey as Woman...
I couldnot, would not and have not deferred those decisions to my partner or anyone else. Of course discussion, thoughts & fears are discussed - but in the end my body, birthing my child is my right & my rite... A rite that my partner can join with & share but ultimately birthing my children is Woman's Business (to me)

[slyder]

And this thread was never about men, it's about birth support on general: doulas/mw/ob/partners.

I didn't say it was. But men were discussed at some length. Can I not respond to male-based comments because I am a man?

[slyder]

I couldnot, would not and have not deferred those decisions to my partner or anyone else. Of course discussion, thoughts & fears are discussed - but in the end my body, birthing my child is my right & my rite...

...and I'm not suggesting that a woman should defer to anyone. Far from it. I just don't why some people in this thread are making (some) men out to be stupid door mats. Like I said, if the shoe was on the other foot we'd have a bunch of crazy militants calling for blood.

[Inanna]

I agree with you Slyder that this is about men & of course you have a right to comment. I for one am glad you are. I don't see thogh that women are making men seem dopey my love!
Just that some women find their Men not as engaged in the education of the birthing process & this is the topic.

You are. You are knowledgeable, compassionate and present. You rock. But somne men are not engaged in the process - they rock in otherways - just not in this way...

I though can see why you are defending Manhood - & I would hope that no one is generalising - just discussing their experiences with their particular Men...

[onthefly]

I think this is a bit OT, but anyway...
On one level, I agree - it is my body - but at the same time, it's not only my birth; it's our baby's birth too and I do believe fathers should have some say in this.
At the end of the day, we both want the same thing, so (hopefully) talking openly about it can ensure we make a joint decision that we're both happy with. That's how it works for us, anyway.

[AliB]

Yeah not toooo sure about stupid doormats?? But they are from Mars! (Not that there's anything wrong with that...!)

My personal feeling - to answer my posed question from earlier - is that it is not fair to say 'my body my choice' as a blanket statment when it comes to childbirth. If women want men involved then we have to be willing to have them genuinely involved ie give them a voice too, if they wish to use it. The only fair alternative, in my view, is to take the 'birth is Woman's business' perspective of Innana's. I'm not sure that we can have it both ways.

[slyder]

But somne men are not engaged in the process - they rock in otherways - just not in this way...

I though can see why you are defending Manhood - & I would hope that no one is generalising - just discussing their experiences with their particular Men...

You're dead right, there are so many blokes with the switch permanently off. No doubt about it. Blokes who only engage in "bloke stuff" are fools, the same as women who only engage in "women stuff" are the same.

To me, some of the comments in this thread are very generalised male knocking tripe, which is a common theme as soon as some women get together and start cackling on about men. Same as idiot blokes at the pub always slagging off "the missus". But on the other hand, maybe I'm just a bit hormonal today.

[AliB]

maybe I'm just a bit hormonal today.

LOL. The word 'incorrigible' comes to mind!

[Inanna]

You are heard Slyder my friend. I agree that women can be man bashers just as men can be misogynists...

I also hear you Ali - about the line... I actually am not sure you can have it both ways either. I couldn't agree to a c/section just because my partner wanted it for me or thought it were best. I would hope he would trust my wisdom & knowledge of my body...

When I say birth is womens business I don't mean it has to exclude men. Just that it is a rite of passage for women. Men can beautifully join with that as they support emotionally and spiritually a woman birthing their child... But ultimately it is the woman's body that is birthing so she needs to feel her decisions are honoured and heard.

[Rouge]

You are not hormonal Slyder. You are just as entitled to your POV as anyone else. Slyder if you want to chat to my DH about any of this he'd be happy to, as he was an awesome birth support person and he is a man

And Ali I don't think Slyder is being incorrigible at all. He has just as much right to disagree or agree or put his thoughts across as anyone else does.

[*TripleJ*]

well to answer th original post DH was not very well informed at all but i will say neither was i

but i did know a fair bit DH thought that an epidural was a good idea and after a massive fight we talked and he understood wat that meant for me and that probably wasnt a good idea

when i had the BH's he was acti g like an idiot yelling and just being plain silly but when it came to that actual birth he was awesome and calm as he never needed to say anything for me but i know that if he did he would have done a wonderful job hes now even open to having a homebirth next time we have a bubba

[AliB]

And Ali I don't think Slyder is being incorrigible at all. He has just as much right to disagree or agree or put his thoughts across as anyone else does.

Sorry Rouge / Slyder - just to clarify - I thought the 'hormonal' comment from Slyder was a fun little elbow at the ladies, hence my 'incorrigible' interpretation of that comment. I was not offended, just amused, and as per my selective quote it was not intended to relate to anything else Slyder had to say. (Which I actually agreed with in my PP!)

[Bumperstump Cummerbund]

Fairy nuff Slyder, I'll put my guns away, sorry for misunderstanding

I do agree that there can be gender bashing on both sides, at times I get uncomfortable around women who say that EVERYTHING that comes out of a mans mouth is sexist, I don't agree with that. I feel DH and I have a pretty equal relationship, and he says he feels listened to about our birth choices, so I think we're in a good place.

WRT the comments you're referring to, maybe you could quote them so they can be explained? I can't think of which ones you could be talking about, but that's the only way to keep the discussion going

[Persephone1]

:yeahthat:

I would like some clarity about which comments were about men and making them look stupid. I certainly hadn't intended for my DH to look stupid, because he's not - but in answer to the original question, my DH is not as informed about the birth as I am.

I would also say that I don't expect my DH to be as informed, or at least informed in the way I am, because he's not the one giving birth. He only needs to be informed enough to support me and to be involved, whereas I need to be informed enough to do the birthing. The same could be said of breastfeeding - I need to be informed (for my own piece of mind and my own understanding) so that I can try it and hope it works. My DH only needs to be informed enough to respect the process, my needs and baby's needs so that he can support me to do it. Does that make sense?

[slyder]

I've deliberately avoided quoting various comments and naming names, because as a former mod I know how quickly these things become hysterical and I wouldn't wish that on the current team.

It's not a big deal. The thread has now gone away from what Berenice was originally on about so I won't say anything further on that particular issue. Bygones.