Why do LTTTCers seem to prefer a c/s?

[paradise lost]

LOL, sushee on my first readin i thought you said your dinner was ON FIRE! LOL. Yummo, charcoal, my fave

I'd be interested to see if the trend is stronger in those women who had to endure more treatment. Like the choices of women who fell PG on first cycle of AC as opposed to those who have had 3+ Stims and 5+ Fresh/frozen ET's?

The reason i wonder that is because it's SO SO clear to me how our own personal experience colours our views of what we can do and what is possible. I will hold up my hands, i concieved accidentally, i had a perfect nearly-natural Homebirth without trouble or complication. I didn't need stitches. I pushed only once and DD shot out. It is SO FAR from the "average" experience, yet my opinions are OF COURSE coloured by that view. Reading what Hollybolly went through i can see that if i'd had her experience i would not have my views. And i DO know people who tried for a homebirth and ended up with sections. I even know a couple who lost their baby during their homebirth. Would it put me off? No. But i'll tell you what, before that baby died i was really geared up for wanting a completely natural birth. With DD i used gas and air for an hour and i had the synto injection for the 3rd stage because about 10mins after birth the midwives were getting a bit twitchy, DD had been a bit blue, and i wanted everyone to feel happy and chilled like i did (DD had recovered by then!). But i was really keen to have a fully natural birth. I knew not only the couple, but the midwife at the birth where the baby died. It was a surprise breech, she got stuck, he head was completely unflexed and it took them 20minutes from the birth of the arms to get the head out. She was resussitated but died 5 weeks later from severe brain damage caused by the oxygen deprivation. I would still have a homebirth, because the fact that her head was unflexed, the cord was already white when her belly was born (though she was still moving at that point, so perhaps whatever went wrong had *just* gone wrong at that point) and the placenta came down fully detatched with the head indicated there was something wrong before birth. SHe turned breech during labour. It's incredibly rare. THat doesn't put me off homebirth at all (though it did for a time). BUT that midwife still isn't back to work. SHe was DEVASTATED by the experience. And now i feel that if my midwife is scared and wants to give me synto i will take it. Not because i think i'll need it, but because the cost to me of taking it, while relieving the fear my midwife might have that i will bleed out and die on her, when she is responsible for my life and that of my newborn, is nothing. So clearly that (long-winded, sorry) is an example of how my belief has been altered by experience.

So we look at the LTTTC woman who has been through many attempts with AC, IUI, IVF, maybe even ICSI to try for better quality embies, who has endured treatment after treatment, loss after loss. For such a woman it's not a case of her body needing a little extra push, or even a BIG extra push. For a couple who have their reproductive cells removed, mechanically united (as with ICSI) and then put back and perhaps had to take drugs in early pregnancy to maintain the pregnancy, their exprience of theor body and it's capabilities in the direction of reproduction is already going to be SO altered by all that. I do know that Ina May (i know i bang on about her, but she's the world expert in normal birth and the authority in figuring out who is high-risk before labour begins!) says that the more horrendous births a woman has had the more cautious she is about recommending birth-centre/home birthing, because it is in our NATURE to learn from our experiences and however chilled a woman can seem in pregnancy, the first contractions can often bring on paralysing fear at the memories of last time. She recommends therapy from midwife-counsellors who can talk to the mother about her previous experiences and fears so everyone can get a feel for how ready she is to try for a natural experience. We don't all react the same way. I saw a horrendous (to me, pretty standard to the midwives apparently) induction, and it made me want to avoid hospital at ALL COSTS. But i know a doctor who has seen horrible births in hospital and she is going to have a section at 38 weeks to avoid it all. She thinks birthing is so hard and said to me "Even with all the interventions we can offer it can go so wrong" - i think the intervention MAKES it go wrong! Similar experiences, totally different reaction.

Perhaps that's at the crux of it Sush? Perhaps when it comes to birthing LTTTC women are more likely to opt for cs because their own experience has shown them repeatedly and over a long period of time that their body will NOT do what it should? That's not really an intellectual exercise, and it's something that's difficult to override. If we as a species could override our poor experiences we'd have died out.

Happymel i had to smile when reading your post and seeing the ticker Twins are common in my family and DP's and i'm TERRIFIED of getting them because of the risk of cs birth. I have already exhausted myself with research and worked out my plan! LOL. If both twins are head down i'll hire a private midwife and have a homebirth. If twin 2 is breech/transverse i will go into hospital and allow them to site and test (but not put drugs into) the spinal/epidural so that i can be taken for a section immediately if need be. If both twins are breech/transverse i will show up for a cs in labour.

Bx

[sushee]

That's a great post from a different prespective, Bx.

I agree it may not be something we can ultimately over-ride, but honestly, I don't think that anyone's tried, at least no one I've come across. I mean, I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice that there is very little accessible support for women who 'graduate' from being LTTTC to being pregnant, and then to being mothers. It's something I've personally noticed, and something I've become quite passionate about - IVFers need support not only during trying to conceive, they should have access to support during their pregnancies, and through the early years of motherhood.

I know some women believe that, once pregnant, there is no difference between a woman who conceived naturally and a woman who conceived via AC after many many years of struggling with infertilty. I don't agree. I think you cannot go through such a life-changing event such as LTTTC and not be affected by it. So why do we as a society essentially ignore these same effects simply because the woman is now pregnant?

Now I'm not saying that there should be support for IVFers to the exclusion of other pg women. I think all women should have as much accessible support as they require. But I do think LTTTCers have unique needs that aren't being met.

This is a common theme among pg LTTTCers, and women who become mothers after LTTTC - they feel isolated and think their feelings of guilt, distress and anxiety is something to be ashamed of. They currently don't have the opportunity to work through those issues, mostly they don't even talk about it. They somehow believe that admitting that they aren't 100% ecstatic 100% of the time will mean they aren't 'deserving' of their good fortune of finaly having success.

And yes, I don't know if support programs, or even starting to discuss the topic in this way, where everyone contributes ideas, will make a difference to the way a woman feels in the long run - certainly whether it will make any difference in the relatively short period between conception and birth. But I want to try. I want to start talking about it. I want to bring it out of the shadows.

Just here on BB I feel like we're starting to talk honestly about how LTTTC affects the way we make choices in pregnancy, and influences the way we parent. So I hope, if nothing else, if allows LTers to continue talking about these sorts of issues.

[paradise lost]

So why do we as a society essentially ignore these same effects simply because the woman is now pregnant?

I think that's just an extension of the GENERAL view in our society of childbearing. We should do it, yes, but we shouldn't talk about it. We shouldn't let it "change" us or our lives, we should be back at work ASAP and showing no outward signs of anything having changed. The attitude i felt i was faced with was "Have a baby, but for goodness sake, shut up about it!" If this is the attitude to a normal woman, who had little out of the ordinary she needed to talk about, what would be the experience of an LTTTC woman, who went through SO SO much to get pregnant?

Bx

[sushee]

Oh I agree completely with you there Bx! I sometimes feel like it's this mountain almost impossible to climb. If an average, fertile woman finds it hard to get support or information about birth choices or BFing or just the emotional aspect of being pg or a new mum, what chance do LTTTCers have?

But I figure we can start small, with an idea, and work from there. Call me an optimist.

[scooby]

Sushee i definately wasnt implying anyone on here had done that, i love BB for that very reason and trust me it is the complete opposite for most forums. I did want to support Nixon though as i have tried to find support elsewhere and been pummeled for even suggesting that i might want a CS rather than risk incontinence issues and it is linked with LTTTC. I feel like i have been a complete failure not being able to concieve naturally only to be hammered and made to feel guilty for considering a cs, which i know is a completely different topic and maybe belongs in another thread but i was really happy to see CS discussed in terms of AC as it does shine a whole new light on the subject. I am very aware that these are my own issues to deal with and i find the whole CS thing a very touchy subject with many issues that i only have about 12 weeks to work through even though (as Hoobley will atest too )i have been trying to work out for a really long time. Apologies for the thread hi jack

[butterfly_warrior]

Sushee, I think part of the problem is that many of us have had years to learn all there is to learn about how to get pregnant and stay pregnant. But we don't look into what comes next at all because that's putting the cart before the horse and is way too scary.

The research on how to actually deal with pregnancy and birth happens once you are there, and if you have endured losses, probably not until much later! For me, it wasn't until I was feeling Munchkin move regularly at around 22 weeks that I came out of denial and actually admitted that a birth was going to happen at the end of this. This gives me a matter of weeks to become as familiar with birth as I was with IVF. Of course, being the perfectionist and compulsive researcher that I am, I feel I need to know as much about one as the other... But at a few days off 28 weeks I'm still not yet completely out of denial and the research still isn't happening. To me, it's no wonder that women in this situation are content to sit back and trust their OB - because it all seems too hard! We have a deadline now that was never there before...

It's also becoming blatantly obvious to me that I'm just not like other pregnant women. There are another 5 pregnant women at work at the moment and all are content and happy to talk about their pregnancies with everyone - including the students. It's not just a peculiarity to my personality and teaching style that as soon as a student wants to question me about my pregnancy that I squash the conversation ASAP and get everyone back to work. The number of times I've heard "but Mrs XXX told us..." I'm the same in baby shops and with strangers - I only seem to want to talk to my close friends about being pregnant and would be so much happier if everyone else could just ignore the bump - not so easy now that it's too big to ignore!

And just last night I was reading an article about how IVF teenagers are more aggressive and more prone to behavioural problems because their parents tend to be more indulgent... but that's a topic for another thread!

BW

[dusty]

Sushee, I think part of the problem is that many of us have had years to learn all there is to learn about how to get pregnant and stay pregnant. But we don't look into what comes next at all because that's putting the cart before the horse and is way too scary.

I can certainly relate to that!

Great topic Sushee. You have managed to raise something that doesn't get spoken about because it seems once you fall pg after IVF either you are expected to just get on and have a pg like any other 'natural pg' or alternatively are monitored to the max to ensure the little mite(s) are still there and doing well for our own sanity's sake. Most of my friend's natural pg's don't seem to be monitored half as much as those I know who have fallen pg through IVF. Yet are the risks any higher for an IVF pg than a natural one?

I hope you don't mind me putting my two cents in when I am clearly not pg and I know that I don't always react or respond the way I think I will when faced with the reality. So this may be a moot point.

I have always always thought I will have a VB and minimal intervention (if I can mentally cope with it) throughout a pg. People around me are always amazed that I don't want an OB to monitor my pg and that I am happy for a midwife/GP guided pg, after all this time and effort we have gone through to fall pg. They wonder shouldn't we ensure we have the absolute best ongoing and continual care available?

I think as I am using an egg donor the chance to experience a natural birth and share that experience with our bub is now even more important to me than it was when I was doing IVF myself. I want to have all the connection I can possibly have to my baby. I feel I have failed on the egg front but by golly I want to do what I was born to do - grunt, groan, suffer and birth my baby! A real physical suffering after all these years of mental suffering (and some physical) mostly for naught, would be simply fantastic IMO.

Everything is so medicalised with regards to IVF conception that I would love a medical intervention free pg and birth if it is possible. The fact that VB is a safer option than a C/S is just the icing on the cake for my decision. I think even if it were the other way around I would have to go the VB as long as there was no strong medical reason not to.

I hope that I get to test my belief and feelings out one day!