Children of Narcissistic Parents

[*Sparklez*]

My MIL is a counsellor and all her friends are people that she counsells. She has them around because - they are the only people that can tolerate her over a long time, she can manipulate them easily because they are unstable and because they make her feel better about herself. She is always comparing herself to them and she is convinced she is better than them. I think she generally avoids people who are stable because they don't feed her narcissistic need. She also likes having friends with very little money because she can be 'generous' - her 'generosity' is completely impractical because it is actually about flaunting what she has and not about helping them at all. It's all part of the dillusion of grandeur and what you describe sounds spot on to me

Lol this sound like my mum!! To the tea, she forgets her problems and/or her children's and concentrates on a strangers..
I remember recently I was in a difficult situation with my Dh's family and asked her to watch the kids for 30 min and she replied" sorry can't, looking after so and so's kids when I asked why she informed me " why are you asking why? What's it any of your business? And if your big nose really has to know, because she is out getting her nails done" FFs dh's grandmother just died and we were going to wash her body, but I was wrong cause apparently I shouldn't ask why she has her neighbor of 3 months kids but in an emergency she can't have her nosey dd kids?
Apparently het neighbor and her dh were having issues so my mun took her kids to go have a break after talking to my mum for 5 hrs.. And dr Phil (mum) decided she owed it to herself to go and pamper herself.
So I missed out on this whole thing and had to take my kids to the cemetery to sit on the car while she was buried, cause in our religion woman aren't meant to be at the burial.


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[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

It's so hard, well for me at least. But she has emotionally abused me, lies to me about her behaviour, calls me names to my face (but praises me behind my back, according to DH and sis) and constantly told me my emotions/actions/language was "wrong", so I guess that fits with being a narc mother. She also uses deliberatly hurtful words when I do something she dislikes - which is a lot of the time.

I suppose the reason my sister is favoured over me is that she was the "bad" one. I got told off, I learnt a new behavioural rule, I stuck to it. Mum slagged off other people, I learnt not to do that. I was super-good. Nothing to whinge about to her friends - so my sister got her SOOOO much sympathy she milked it big time. Gotta love the child who gets you the most attention, right? I'm so glad she ignored me for years! It makes it easier to see through her now, that she ignored me when I needed her just because she wanted the attention my sister's actions gave her.

I suppose I need to check that she really is this sick and it isn't me wanting to label things and feeling aggrieved over nothing again.

Oooh, Sparklez, that really is awful. I am so mad for you! I know I have been upset when mum prioritises playgroup/rainbows over me and Liebs when I have been ill, but what your mother did is so much worse.

[Just Me]

It's so hard, well for me at least. But she has emotionally abused me, lies to me about her behaviour, calls me names to my face (but praises me behind my back, according to DH and sis) and constantly told me my emotions/actions/language was "wrong", so I guess that fits with being a narc mother. She also uses deliberatly hurtful words when I do something she dislikes - which is a lot of the time.

Sounds like NPD to me ... there are a number of reasons that NPD parents will praise you behind your back but treat you horribly to your face. They view you as an extension of themselves therefore any achievement, any success, any of your good qualities can all be attributed to them. They tell other people because they are taking credit for it. They never have to tell you because they have twisted it to believe that you should be thankful to them for all of your good qualities and achievements - in their minds, it is only because of them that you can be that fabulous or do that well. It also serves the purpose of making them look like a doting mother/father. If you ever get the courage to say to someone else that you don't like is going on, they have already set it up so that no-one will believe you (it is actually a pretty classic trait of abuse).

They put you down to your face because your 'horrible' qualities and your failures have nothing to do with them except makes them look bad in front of their friends. They also do it to control you, because narcissists get a bit of a kick out of getting an emotional reaction from other people and because they need to blame someone else for their own shortcomings. Children are the perfect people to do this to because they are 100% dependent on their parents. They rely on their parents for everything - basic surivival needs, their needs for love, belonging and affection - children are completely dependent. NPD's are in a great position with their children and can condition them by not meeting their emotional or physical needs when they don't comply. By the time you are grown, you are so conditioned by the behaviour of your NPD parent, it is hard to identify what they are doing. To even discover that it is not normal and most families are not like this is a HUGE step. If you have never known anything else, it seems normal, but it isn't.

Most children of narcissists are conditioned to please their parents or face the horrendous consequences. I think that is why guilt is such a strong emotion in this thread, as well as self doubt because we have been taught to feel guilty for anything that goes wrong and if we ever questioned anything that happened our N parent would gaslight us and make us feel crazy. I seriously don't think that anyone could come out of a childhood like that and feel confident and good about themselves without working through a lot of issues.

Narcissism is hard because it is invisible and hard to identify because people on the outside can't see it and people close to it are so conditioned to think the problem lies with them rather than with the narcissist.

[StrawberryFields]

Sparklez - thats awful! What a biatch!


I wonder how many of us have been diagnosed or possibly have other disorders because of our parents. I suffer from anxiety and mild antisocial personality disorder (APD) which the psychologist at my uni said is extremely likely to be a lovely gift from my mother. Anyone else? Its cool if you're not comfortable sharing

I should add that my APD is well under control and don't worry I'm not going to go out there and go Joker on the world lol

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Thanks Sparklez and Just Me - it's really kind of you to help me work my issues out with you.

I've had depression since age 7. I don't think I will ever be free of it, although I am OK at the moment.

[Just Me]

I wasn't going to get specific because I feel like I have been sharing too many of my issues all over the forums already at the moment ... things always seem to come to a head at the same time ... but anyway, I feel like a bit of a hypocondriac. To be honest, it is also so much easier for me to share that other people have issues and admitting that I have a mental illness is not only new to me but something I don't like admitting. Having said that - I have been diagnosed with Generalised Anxiety Disorder, Social Anxiety Disorder, Panic Disorder with Agoraphobia, Major Depressive Disorder (all of those have been diagnosed at a moderate clinical level) and at a subclinical level (meaning I show signs of but don't have enough symptoms for a full diagnosis) Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and a Phobia Disorder and Insomnia.

I don't think all of mine are entirely environmental. I can see signs of all of them in various family members and I think they are partially genetic from both sides of my family. Experiences in my childhood have probably made it far worse than it is because I have a lot of unhealthy head talk going on but I think I would have struggled with these issues to some degree regardless. I have opted to stay off meds at this point in time but I am undergoing cognitive therapy which is helping I think. I am only in my second week of therapy but I am feeling much better about everything mostly because I feel like now I have a way out. I was feeling very trapped up until a few weeks ago which wasn't helping my symptoms.

I can't really talk to my family about my diagnosis though. DH is supportive of course, but most of my family don't believe in mental illness. Part of the reason my anxiety has become so bad in the last little while is because my whole life I have been told to 'snap out of it' and because I haven't been able to snap myself out of it, I have been more worried about my worry and it has made my anxiety much much worse.

[*Sparklez*]

Just Me- No dont feel like you have to hold back, these issues are happening and there happening now, you cant help that these all come to head at once, and as for your other threads, i can only say, you are a wonderful, inspirational and a very comapssionate woman. Regardless what has happened to you in life, you have taken it in and used it as a tool to create new paths for you and your family, to ensure your children arent exposed to this sort of issue..

The flying butter- Hun, No matter what it is that you have medically, it is no excuse for any parent nor adult to emotionally, physically, sexually abuse a child, no matter what circumstances are in place. A child is a child of innocense, a object that is frail and also extremely impressionalable and very naive and volatile.
It sounds like your mother did abuse you emotionally and at her own satisfaction. You never did anything to warrant any sort of emotional abuse and that to me is a violation of innocense no matter how severe.

Strawberry Fields- Yes, she is!! Lol. My mum is a multi-manipulator. She is perfect around stranegers but doesnt take her long to show her true colours and even then she will have any excuse to cover it up and they fall back in love with her again. She has suffered health wise, cancer and stuff, but i always supported her in any way possible, But her motto is "karma is a b***h" inwhich means, we did nothing for her so wait until your in this situation.
Also on the topic of mental illness due to these poeple lol.
I suffere from Bipolar Disorder. This was discovered around 18 months ago now. I have an extremely compulsive but also aggressive side that wil come from unwarranted but also am very volatile to certain situations.
I also suffer from Deep anxitey also, I have anxiety attacks when i start feeling threatened, or if i get certain vibes from people i dont trust, very weird i know lol
I suffer from Depression also which can kick in at the best of times which i hate because i go into a complete dazed and zombie like state. which effects my ability to parent. so that has to be closly monitored.
I am on meds for my Bipolar but thats all i will take right now, the bipolar tablets are very strong and carry alot of lithium in it which makes me ill alot.
Also think that i can show NPD signs but i think they are just mimic's from my mother itms?
I never ever put my kids down nor talk myself up and etc

[minniemouse]

By the time you are grown, you are so conditioned by the behaviour of your NPD parent, it is hard to identify what they are doing.

this really stood out for me, when i was 10 my 19 year old brother died in a motorcycle accident, i only really remember life really from that moment and it wasn't pleasant, i thought she was like that because of my brother died but im now starting to feel otherwise........

when we had the falling out last year and i briefly spoke to my dad about it months later he basically tried to dismiss a lot of her behaviour as "you know what she is like" cause apparently that makes everything ok

the flying butter: i think you found yourself in this thread for a reason, don't get so hung up on not fitting all the criteria or other stories seem "worse" than yours, the bottom line is how you have been made to feel by your mothers behaviour

i haven't been diagnosed with a disorder as such but i did suffer a lot of anxiety with my 2nd child, at the time i put it down to him being a difficult baby & a close friend lost a baby at 4 months (he was 2 weeks older than my boy), so now im wondering if there was something else happening.
i am however quite overweight & i was through my childhood so im wondering if this is as a result of my mothers behaviour (does that sound like im grasping at straws, looking for someone to blame when maybe im just lazy ?)

so i have a question & it is probably a silly question but do people with npd realise what they are doing ? the one time i spoke up for myself i saw so much hate in my mothers eyes and she said what is this rubbish coming out of your mouth...in letters after this happened she kept going on about all i ever wanted was to be a wonderful mother but obviously i have failed miserably (this is all part of the guilt i guess)

since the fallout i wonder what she tells people about me, i heard on the grapevine that she was saying she didn't know what had happened, only that i was upset with her & she didn't know why. i can only imagine that she would be telling friends that i won't let her see the kids, the problem is people think she is wonderful so it really upsets me to think everyone must think its my fault & what a horrible person i must be

sparklez: that was a horrible thing for your mother to do

[RockinSAHD]

(I'm sure I'm scintillating here, LOL)

I appreciate your posts and very much doubt that you are boring or have problems with emotions.

All the posts here are my MIL, its spooky! Though she still has lots of contact with the kids, that's mostly because I deal with her and DW can avoid her. I have been quite upfront with her in the past which has caused all kinds of problems (like any dealings with a NP) but on the upside she is slightly scared of me and behaves herself.

It's a very difficult situation!

[Starfish]

Thank you everyone for posting in this thread. I am sorry to hear about all your experiences, but in a way I am glad that I am not the only one who grew up with these experiences.

My dad has pretty much openly admitted that he would rather that I worked in a profession that made him look good rather than me being happy. When I was younger, he would force me to let him help me with my homework (when I didn't need help and was fine on my own), and would get hugely offended and angry when I refused the help ("but I am doing all this for you, look how much I am helping, I am taking time out for you, and you are ungrateful for not wanting it, etc...) He also regularly plays my brothers and sister and me against each other, e.g. "did you know that H said .... about you..." (when H said no such thing), etc.

Because of growing up like this I have zero self esteem. I have had issues with anxiety (not diagnosed, but to the point that other people have pulled my up on my OCD behaviour), as well struggling with substance abuse. It is really hard for me now, as DH suffers from mental illness and a lot of the time asks unreasonable things of me (e.g. asking to drive the car when he is drunk), and if I say no (which in the above example any sane person would), I feel soooo guilty and feel like I need to make it up to him for refusing his request.

My dad also has issues with overweight people. I am in no way overweight now, but I am still not fit enough apparently, and playing and running around with DD in the park is not exercise, I NEED to go to a gym. Funny, when I actually used to go to the gym and enjoy it, my dad didn't consider that good enough either. It seemed to me that as long as it was something that I didn't enjoy, then and only then was it suitable exercise...

[Jennifer13]

MIL is an atheist so no church group involvement but her latest best friend is always some poor person with a sad story that she met last week. She's also good at being there for relatives she hasn't seen in 20 years who then seem to always do something that means she won't talk to them much again. She took in students for a while to 'mother' (I think to prove the issues with her own kids clearly had nothing to do with her, because look how much she was willing to do for these strangers' children!).

Friendships/relationships in her life don't tend to last long. And she uses other people's faith/belief to mock them (she doesn't need such a crutch). It's a perceived intellectual superiority on her part. She so far keeps her criticism of my faith to herself, but I think she doesn't know what to say around DD.

[Just Me]

I wrote a massive reply and then accidentally closed the window rather than pressed reply

MM, I struggled with the issue of not knowing whether NPD's understood what they were doing and whether it was right for us to go non contact with MIL if she didn't understand. I think it is a bit like a psychopath who becomes a serial murderer though - just because there is a mental illness doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. I think they do understand right from wrong and that having a disorder is not an excuse to do whatever they like. I found this link particularly useful - What Makes Narcissists Tick: Hurting You Isn't Something Narcissists Do by Accident

Also if you are starting to feel a bit guilty about things, this link is also good - Feeling Guilt - Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers

My MIL also claims to have no idea what she has done to us. We wrote it all out for her in email after email. Once we went no contact, we started emailing for a bit to see if we could work it out - that was before we knew about the NPD. She emailed back and the emails are really interesting to look at now that we understand NPD. At the time, they were infuriating and no-one else could see why we were so angry about the things she wrote, but I can see NPD behaviour riddled throughout her emails now and it all makes sense to me. I don't feel angry anymore when I look back at her emails because I understand what was going on and I can see what she was trying to do. But she still tells anyone who will listen that she has no idea why she can't see her son and her grandchildren.

We asked them in one of our emails what they expected from a relationship with us and her response was 'to be able to love you unconditionally?' but then went on to list that seeing us at Christmas and on birthdays, to be allowed to give us presents, to receive gifts from us, to be able to show that they loved us however they liked were all part of their 'unconditional love'. They couldn't see, though goodness knows we tried to explain, that those things are all conditions. And we knew from the past, that as soon as we gave them those seemingly little things (I say seemingly because there was nothing little about accepting those things from them ... they made it out like they were opportunities for them to give to us but it was really just opportunities for us to celebrate MIL and all her wonderfulness ) that there would be more and more and more to follow.

By the time we worked out MIL had NPD, we come to the conclusion by ourselves that they held us and DH's siblings responsible for their happiness. They were never going to be happy because they depended too much on us to do it for them and whenever we fulfilled anything they asked us to do, there was always more that they expected from us. It was never ending.

Starfish - My Dad is similar in some ways to yours. His thing was apologising. He would do awful things to me as a kid/teenager. He would provoke me until I snapped and he got a reaction and then he would punish me. It would turn into a massive argument which usually ended in my sitting in my crying for ages. When he was ready, he would come into my room like some kind of superhero and offer something that resembled an apology except it was more along the lines of 'I'm ready to forgive you now'. If I ever told him to go away because I wasn't ready to talk, he would fly into an absolute rage and tell me he would never forgive me and never forget and then come up with new and even crueller ways to punish me. I was completely at his mercy because I was so dependent on my parents for everything. I had been conditioned from a young age that I needed them. Even as a child I was told that if I ever ran away from home if they caught me they would drag me back home and beat me black and blue to teach me to never run away again. It's only been very recently that I realised how incredibly abusive that was and if you liken it to an abusive relationship between a man and a woman, it would be obvious. Because it was parent to child, the same rules don't seem to apply, though I think they should.

My dad also has body issues but he is on the opposite end of the spectrum. He is morbidly obese. We are not allowed to mention his weight at all. He seriously thinks that he could be a model. But if we even so much as say the word 'fat' around him, he loses it. Even if we aren't saying it in relation to him. I once said about something on TV "That's a big fat lie" and got grounded for a week and he didn't speak to me at all.

Many of our arguments happened around him saying really cruel and awful things to me "You are not a nice person. You are only nice when you want something." or "I have never met anyone as selfish as you in all my life", "I hope when you have children, they are as horrible to you as you are to me and then you will know how I feel". If I ever tried to argue and say that I wasn't those things, he would tell me that he is the adult so he gets the last word in an argument and I need to walk away quietly and then he would say whatever it was again so I could walk away quietly. I would and then he would wait a couple of minutes and obviously because I never rose to the occassion, he would come and find me and would push me until I argued back with him and eventually he would ground me for some ridiculous amount of time. He bullied me for years and it has done terrible things to my self esteem. I can still see so many of my thought patterns are influenced like that and I have to make such a conscious decision to not keep believing some of the things I learned through those experiences.

SAHD - My dad is completely intimidated by my DH like your MIL is by you. It's great but I still have lots of issues when DH isn't around. My dad also tries the same things that he did to me on my kids but he has no authority over them and they know it so he gives up. Kids are so smart - they know and they just roll their eyes and walk away.

Sparklez - I think everyone shows some N behaviours at one point or another. It's human nature to be a little bit egotistic. I think the difference is that N really don't care about anyone but themselves. They only show love and affection when they are going to get something out of it. You may show more N tendencies than normal if that is the example you were set as a child, but I think that the lack of empathy and focus on self as the motivation for everything you ever do would be the things that set a person with NPD apart from just a normal person with N tendencies. Does that make sense? I show lots of N tendencies too but I don't believe that I have NPD. My DH also shows them as well but I don't think he has NPD either. They are learned behaviours that once we realise we do we try and change and we do change over time. A person with NPD doesn't ever really change. The same issues they have now with relating to other people will still be the same 5 years from now and they were they same 5 years ago.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

Eugh. I'm a dreadful daughter. My mother called me on Wednesday to tell me so. ...

[StrawberryFields]

Well done on finishing uni! Thats awesome! Best feeling in the world hey And we're all proud of you even if your parents are being douchebags about it

And also... ummm you didn't miss fathers day at all. So you might want to let your mum know that!

Fathers day here is the first Sunday in SEPTEMBER. It was fathers day in the USA this week (I think) but not Australia. So, unless you're in the US, you missed a big fat load of nothing - You would have seen things in the junk mail or on the TV, or heard it on the radio no matter how busy you were if it were fathers day.

[Ca Plane Pour Moi]

... But as I have had no time to sit and watch TV, I haven't noticed the adverts, if there were any. And, of course, didn't get the reminders from the internet as I use a parenting forum that isn't in my home country so my parents can't track me down as easily on-line.

But yeah, I did get rather drunk last night to celebrate. It was fun.

[black_rose]

JM I dont think my mum understands her actions or behaviour are wrong. She may say she does and even apologise but she does it so she can see her grandkids.

What made me realise the extent of her problems was when she made a huge fuss on my 30th about not being involved in planning the surprise dinner on the beach I talked to my mil. She mentioned my mum had issues and she was wary of her after she told her how she told my dad not to come to see me after I had been in a serious car accident 6 years earlier. My mum had always told me my dad's wife had said he couldn't go in the car with my mum. At this stage they thought I had to be airlifted to Melbourne. I had a strained relationship with my dad and his wife after the accident and it was all based on lies.

I confronted my mum and she denied telling him not to come even in counseling, she said my dad and mil must be lying and how could I believe them over her. That was when the counsellor said she would never change and would always be controlling.

It was an eye opener and I certainly don't trust her. I let her have limited contact with the kids in the past when she watched the girls she wouldn't change their nappies, and would lie and say they had just pooed or tell me they ate a lot and wouldn't explain bumps.

I finally have a much better relationship with my dad, and I know not to believe my mum's gossip. Just have to work on my self esteem still and get healthy for my kids.

Ps congrats FB! Don't worry about father's day it's just something else your mum is focussing on if it wasn't that it would be something else.

[cjane]

My mother is particularly obsessed with father's day and liking to pretend we all have a happy family. When in actual fact, our Dad was never there for us, he was verbally abusive, and, as Ive also said - has traits of NPD but also other things. He had long term affairs...lied to the family - has other children for all we know. The list goes on. I always find father's day hard because I never really want to do anything. I dont have a proper relationship with my Dad - we both know it, yet we play the game. Mum usually tries to get in first - locking us in to a big family lunch well ahead of time before I have time to remember to assert myself.

My mum likes to hog all major events - Christmas, mother's day, etc. She locks people in really early. My in-laws only have my husband as their only son and they aren't very assertive - they seem to be the opposite of my mum, never wanting to impose, will have us whenever we are free - I feel sorry for them as they usually get the shorter end of the stick. My mum has a really good way of manipulating the situation to find out that there is nothing we have planned with DH's family and she swoops in and gets us at the right time...I just cant explain how clever she is at it..I fall for it a lot. She invites my inlaws to things so that way she can guarantee everything is at her house, on her terms, and she gets to be the big hero who has the whole family over etc. Its so controlling!!!! She has us all fooled. My brother, his wife and kids would rarely see my SIL's side of the family - they are ALWAYS at mum's every major event, her family takes a back seat too. Mum gets first dibs on everything - even baby sitting, pet sitting, etc - if she can do it, mum has to be the one to do it - she offers so you cant say know and is quite accommodating. Might sound good on the surface, but its another form of control. I think its her way of blackmailing all of us to do what she wants. Because then she is able to say "look at everything I do for you - the least you could do is spend Christmas day at my house"...etc etc

[deletedit]

I thought I might just add too in relation to our kids, I don't think my PIL actually care about them at all. They want to see them and they want to be in their lives but only because PIL think they are entitled and that we are not fulfilling our job as dutiful children by presenting our children to them on a regular basis (or at all).
<snip>
Really all they want is some photos for a yearly news letter that they send to all their friends as well as a bit of information.

A few things in what you said rings true, except ours aren't the grandkids that get shown off. I have photo galleries of the kids online that they have the address for and I don't think they look at them - they have one or two very average and extremely out of date photos of our kids while I have all these lovely recent ones on the website.

The few times we visit she talks about the *other* child. The *other* child's spouse. The *other* grandkids. They ask the occasional token question about us and then instantly direct conversation to similar topics about the *other* grandkids. They see us once every several months but still manage to not take photos of us, despite not *having* photos of us. Their house is jam packed with photos of the *other* grandkids. They rarely call or visit. Once she visited on my birthday and talked about some friend (dunno who this friend is) who died of cancer - in extreme detail. When we do visit we either get ignored or we get snide, subtle, hurtful insults followed by "only kidding!". She only came up with a 'grandmother' name when the other grandchildren were born, which means all of my kids call her by her first name, and all the other grandparents get called grandma etc.

Dunno why we bother. Everyone else in the family rings or visits quite often, wants to know what we are doing etc etc. We're going to be crippled by lack of transport very soon now and I expect everyone else to continue to ring and visit and us to just ... not see that family member again, unless they actually visit us. And we've discussed this and pretty much come to the conclusion that we're not going to be missing out on anything. We already know we don't meet the 'proper' socially acceptable definition of a family unit and thus probably aren't good to show off to the ladies at social luncheons.

I honestly don't think they realise they do it. My partner hasn't got the guts to discuss it with that family member, I don't think its my place, so we've just decided to completely stop talking to them and visiting and see what happens. So far, absolutely nothing has happened. Not even a mention when we missed mother's day. Why would they notice us going silent? They have *other* grandkids ...