Does happy mum REALLY equal happy baby?

[Smoke Jaguar]

I get really shirty when I read, 'this too shall pass'. And I read it on here heaps. Personally, it doesn't give me any comfort whatsoever.

Really? I find it's just the kick in the arse I need! It reminds me that I am more than just this moment in time and that I have overcome some huge things in the past and have the resources to continue doing so
I like it because it makes sense and is a real truism. The saying HM=HB just has no sense for me - it's a 'nothing' to me that says "just keep telling yourself that, honey" and offers very little real support or understanding, as discussed earlier. I dont' think anyone has used it for me before and I would be bewildered if someone did, cos I'm not looking for neutrality - I like people to give me real reasons and real feedback. Otherwise, don't bother! And that's just for me - others definitely feel differently and WANT to hear this because they've already decided.
Like I agreed earlier, fulfilment of the mother as a functioning person in her own right need not happen at the expense of the mother-baby dyad. To me, there is no sound reason to separate the entities as having distinct interests during this infancy stage (or beyond, for that matter). To render them distinctly separate confounds the issues the mother is dealing with and doesn't address the problem she has in relating to her new role (whether she's a first timer, or a mother of many accommodating a new soul into her life - to me, every child redefines the mother's role, first or subsequent), in my own opinion and informed thought based on my learnings about infant-mother attachment and development during the lifespan.
See? I can be intellectual and not pine for my pre-baby days! I feel DS has added a new dimension to my world and given me new things to learn about

[Liz]

If we are confessing to overused phrases we dislike I'll admit that I get really shirty when I read, 'this too shall pass'. And I read it on here heaps. Personally, it doesn't give me any comfort whatsoever.

LOL. Yes, it is a bit overused. It's a good reminder that things don't last forever though.

[sushee]

See, I actually feel like whenever someone talks about how fulfillment can be achieved, but should not be at the expense of the child, I wonder if we do really respect that we're not always going to feel exactly the same way about these things. I did not find being a SAHM mum fulfilling, not in the same way I now find being a working woman, a mum to 4 kids and part-time student to be fulfilling.

And to me, it's not about relating to a new role either. I have had three children earlier in my life, been a SAHM, been infertile, had another child later in life, and I don't have any problems with adapting to the role of being a mother. I've been one for almost 19 years.

I don't look at SAHMs and say you must be unfulfilled because you aren't living my life. I also wouldn't expect anyone to imply that perhaps if I'd tried a bit harder, perhaps I would have found fulfillment being a SAHM.

That you are fulfilled being a SAHM is great for you. But I'm not you. I'm not confused about my role, I'm not pining for my pre-baby days, I just like my life just the way it is right now - which includes challenging work, some study to keep my brain ticking over, and my son not necessarily being with me 24/7. And that's because we are all different.

I don't believe that my fulfillment is at my children's detriment btw, either. And I think it's when someone implies that by somehow not always putting your child's needs absolutely before your own, you're not as self-sacrificing as someone who does manage to find staying at home fulfilling, that some of the participants of this thread start to get upset.

[Smoke Jaguar]

Well, the women I'm talking about are the ones who ARE unresolved and are told "HM=HB". Women who are at ease with their choices don't even need to hear "HM=HB", so I don't see it as an issue for you, Sushee. How many times have you posted a thread where you've needed to read that as advice? Sounds to me like you would have made your choices anyway, and been supported in them.
It's the women who need the support to reconnect to their instinct that I feel are done a disservice with this saying, and I am pretty sure this is what the OP is about.
No-one would offer me the saying because I think I am obviously fulfilled to those who know me. I am not conflicted and I don't need my conscience soothed.
I continue studying because I started the course before I fell pg. Otherwise, I'd have been quite happy to wait till my kids didn't need me as much. I know why women wait till kids are at school before continuing study! I'm finding it too intrusive on my time with DS and my headspace, so it doesn't actually make me 'happy', it's a means to an end (eventually being a psychologist and this is the first installment of study). So, I know what I have to do and I know that if it gets too much, I'd give it away until later. I've already sussed out that option with my course co-ordinator So I don't need to be told "HM=HB" either, because it doesn't address my condundrum in the least. It's a 'nothing' to my situation.
I hope you can see, Sushee, what I'm getting at, and that this thread isn't about women who are already resolved in their choices in regards to self-fulfilment and mothering.

[paradise lost]

Sushee i wasn't implying anyone should have tried harder and found fulfilment - you ARE fulfilled. I'd rather be doing what i am, and you'd rather be doing what you are. You found your way to do it and i don't think i've EVER read you write "HM=HB" in reference to your life situation WRT working or not. And i don't consider myself "more self-sacrificing" because i haven't sacrificed anything. I choose to live how i do, and i'm happy with it. I am not better or worse than any other parent. Can any of us REALLY say we respect another's way of doing something while simultaneously doing something else? I respect your RIGHT to do whatever you want, but if i really thought it was the best thing for me, i'd be doing it too, kwim? If you REALLY respected the importance i place in SAH, you'd be at home too. You KNOW what works best for you, and i know what works best for me. You have never told me to work, even when i've posted about being poor or stressed, you have never once suggested i work, and i know you respect my choices, even if they wouldn't be yours.

I imagine also that if you had been FORCED to be a SAHM for some reason, a woman like you WOULD have found a way to be fulfilled while doing that. I have read so many of your posts and your blog and it's clear you're not a woman who sits around waiting for things to happen, you go out and happen to the world! If you imagine for a second being me, and feeling so strongly that you should SAH with your kid that you CANNOT consider working then you WOULD find a way in that scenario to be fulfilled. If you don't feel you MUST SAH then you will be able to work. For some this isn't simple and they do have to accept doing the best they can to stick to their ideals in a situation they don't much like, and for others it's a far simpler decision.

For me the crux of this MIGHT be the validation point. For me, if i'm online looking for advice that's one thing, but if i'm asking strangers to validate my actions i KNOW i'm doing the wrong thing. If i'm right i know i am, and if i don't know i am i'm usually on the wrong track.

Bx

[Roryrory]

Very interesting to wake up to at 7.30am on a Saturday morning!!

First up - Hoobs, Sushee and Maya - gotta say I like the way you are all discussing this

Now to my somewhat garbled point(s):

Can any of us REALLY say we respect another's way of doing something while simultaneously doing something else? I respect your RIGHT to do whatever you want, but if i really thought it was the best thing for me, i'd be doing it too, kwim?

I think we can respect that something is right for someone else, Hoobley, but I think I know what you are saying. Its kind of like a discussion I had with my SIL a while back - she had terrible guilt issues about her c/s, not BF and return to work with her son (ALL of which were completely understandable in her situartion and level of knowledge about birth and babies). She is now incredibly pro-childcare and at peace with her birth experience (I think - but it is hard to recover from the idea of a MAJOR post-op infection which saps your body to the point where you can't BF). And I said to her (kindly) "If you are convinced that you boy is having a superior experience of life because of childcare, as opposed to a child who is at home all day, then be happy your child is better off". So I think this is kind of what you are saying Hoobs - we do what we believe is best. It is when we don't that we need HB=HM....

If you REALLY respected the importance i place in SAH, you'd be at home too. You KNOW what works best for you, and i know what works best for me.

I respectfully disagree. I actually want both - I want to be a SAHM and throw myself into it. When I worked I fantasied about how if I was home I would check the playschool program schedule and integrate the themes with trips to the library to borrow books on topic and little excursions to bring it to life. But I also want the full-time, successful career. The two are incompatible, so I have to choose. Thankfully for me my DH is prepared to stay at home with the boys while I work and we have opted for me to be the sole breadwinner so my choice is made for me.

I did not find being a SAHM mum fulfilling, not in the same way I now find being a working woman, a mum to 4 kids and part-time student to be fulfilling....I'm not confused about my role, I'm not pining for my pre-baby days, I just like my life just the way it is right now - which includes challenging work, some study to keep my brain ticking over, and my son not necessarily being with me 24/7.

And Sushee brings me to my next point - ultimately, women have to be comfortable with the stories they tell themselves. I don't mean this in a nasty way, such as "oh yeah you TELL yourself you want to work but you really want to be at home". What I mean is we have to find peace with our (valid for us and considered) choices. Before I lost my job I pined for the life of a SAHM (even though I chose to start working full-time - I hated seeing my career slowly die while I worked part-time). But as soon as I was at home I realised you have to be careful what you wish for! Now I relish the idea of working again.

I think if you are a mum who is a full-time SAHM while deep down thinking it is the most boring thing in the world, but tells herself she should be at home because you "should", you may be in danger of not doing the best job you are capable of. And equally, if you work full-time (through choice - I am not talking about necessity here!) but really would prefer to be home and are gutted every time you leave your child, then you are unlikely to have the committment to your career that success demands. So our stories must be compatible with our choices, for better or worse. For those of us who are reconciled with our paths, chosen or otherwise, we are content with what we are doing. For those who are not, then I think HM = HB might be their only escape.

[*Efjay*]

I haven't read all of this thread. but gonna say this....

I think sometimes An unhappy mum is the work of a happy baby. Im sure there are days (and nights) when my kids pueposely push my buttons just so they can have a giggle at me. Its like an inside joke between them
Take Isla & Iain for example. Iain is lovely, sleeps though most nights. What more could I ask for with 4 kids? Well Isla thought it would be funny to revert back to wake 3 times a night.
She is happy cuz she is getting boobie through the night, But I ain't cuz I want to take advantage of my new baby sleeping though. So I think Isla is having a good ol laugh at me!
Well not for long though cuz I have cottoned on & Im gonna have to tuffin up on this constant waking!

LOL so yeah I think my kids are all have a secret little laugh at me thinking to themselves "Sucker!!" LOL

Na I don't really think that. Happy baby's=Happy kids/Happy family's. But we can't all be happy at the same time. Well we can get everyone happy at the same time, it just takes a bit of hard work sometimes & no one likes hard work.

[Snacks]

Really? I find it's just the kick in the arse I need! It reminds me that I am more than just this moment in time and that I have overcome some huge things in the past and have the resources to continue doing so

And that's the way you can flesh out what seems like a "nothing" statement to me. It confirms and validates your approach to parenthood in just the way you need.
But if I am going through some sort of personal parenting hell, and I have posted on here pretty much every time, lol, when someone says that to me it means nothing. I already know it won't last forever but that doesn't make the pain of those moments any easier to bear for me. It is not my motivation. I need people to offer more support and understanding as you say, to me in that specific situation. In my mind, that statement is not one that I am able to flesh out in the way that you can.
I agree in that often it is a validation used for people who have already made a decision. For example, the statement HM=HB used in the feeding threads - I think often people have already made the decision to bottle feed their child and need to be validated in their choice. Now, I breastfed Natalie, I am 100% for breastfeeding, and I don't believe I have ever used the statement in this context (or ever, actually!), but I can see some instances where it might be appropriate. I don't want to offend you Bx - I did read your story and I am so very sorry that you were forced by circumstances beyond your control to stop breastfeeding. Obviously the phrase was useless to you. I think sometimes I see posts by desperate women who never had the burning desire to BF, but gave it a go anyway. I think you really need to want to breastfeed to be able to do it, unless you are very lucky and don't find establishing BF difficult. I don't see the point in unhappily breastfeeding if it is something you realistically didn't want desperately to do, so in this circ I don't have a problem with the statement.
I've not personally been in a place where the statement would be of use to me though, lol. Natalie was a pretty consistently unhappy infant so the whole idea was pretty redundant for us two.

[Smoke Jaguar]

no one likes hard work.

Ooooh, I'm ALWAYS up for a challenge Pushing comfort zones is what I'm comfortable with LOL! Then again, I'm usually a 'full tilt' or 'no tilt' kind of person, living my life passionately interested in what I'm doing, on some level, or out for the count.
My firefighting is very important to me. If it weren't, I'd have opted out when DS was little. This is the one area of conflict in my life, akin to Rory's one with work. I have been trying and trying and trying to make it work. I've been making compromises on it and my firefighting has suffered a LOT. And as I'm still passionate about its role in my life, I haven't given up on it yet. However, with the current and foreseeable male-interest-oriented nature of fire brigades, no-ones going to help me integrate firefighting into my mothering experience (yes, I do believe I could be better accomodated and supported, including by my partner who is also a volunteer), so whilst that's the case for now (don't worry, it's something I'm working on...I can chip away at the Old Guard slowly to make it easier for someone else to knock down the wall!), my boy is better off with my letting fire brigade take a back seat. I don't need anyone to tell me this and I don't think it would at all help if someone said "Go on, go on a Strike Team and take your pump with you - it will make you happy and HM=HB", because DS would be VERY upset with me being gone for 24 hours in hot weather when he wants some boob! Not compatible, I made my choice and whilst my hand is forced for now, the compromise is necessary to meet DS's needs. And that makes me happy and fulfilled in its own way.
ETA:

It confirms and validates your approach to parenthood in just the way you need.

No, not for parenting, for life in general I love this quote. It's my reality check. Everything passes, it gives me perspective when I think something is huger than it really is.

[*Efjay*]

I've just glanced back over this thread. Have to say I am hating how defensive everyone seems to get on BB these days.

Ooooh, I'm ALWAYS up for a challenge Pushing comfort zones is what I'm comfortable with LOL!

Thats great! Im more of a "its gotta be done" kinda person. Like a couple of years back I had to pick the car up from being serviced. To do it, I had to catch 2 buses with 3 kids (one being 6 weeks old) on a really hot day, it took an hour of travel to get there. That was hard work, I didn't like it but it had to be done. You just get on with it & do it.

[Smoke Jaguar]

That was hard work, I didn't like it but it had to be done. You just get on with it & do it.

Yep, and sometimes you might end up 'liking' it because of the sense of achievment from doing it - even if you didn't like it at the time. I would have felt pretty potent having made that trip, FJ - like "I didn't think I could and there, I proved that I'm super-capable of daunting tasks"!
Like me with BFing - it WAS bloody hard work and I did it knowing that I'd look back and thank myself for putting my own comfort way below DS's, because it would eventually be my own comfort, too. So, there's HB=HM & 'this too shall pass' all rolled into one scenario!
I definitely understand that not all mummies are created equal in the resilience stakes and need a leg up and need compromises. They need to know they're compromises, though, and not be told that HM=HB as if all decisions have equal weighting. Admitting you're having difficulty and asking for help is a tough thing, and to be told it doesn't matter which you choose because all roads lead to the ivory tower is misleading. And, sometimes, it is the only thing you can say as a stranger who doesn't know the person asking well enough to feel comfortable pushing them into a new zone of expectation of themselves.
Sorry if that's convoluted - I've just made another batch of playdough (thanks LuluHB for the idea you gave me, even though you're not here anymore! It was great hot day inspiration ) in bright purple and it's probably affected my reasoning :P

[sushee]

Bx,

I agree with you. I agree with almost everything you said. Because it was what I was trying to say too: I think fulfillment is something only the mother can find, because she's the only one who knows what it means to her.

As far as the HM=HB thing goes,I've already said I don't think it's necessarily true. I may have been unfulfilled as a SAHM for those first two years my son was here, but my son was a secure, happy baby. I was a good mother despite not necessarily being fulfilled. And I believe the decision to stay home those first years with him was a sound one, and one I would do again without hesitation if I had to live my life over.

But I guess I couldn't do that forever. It's not like I hadn't done it before (I was a SAHM to my first three kids for 8 years) and at some stage, I had to attend to my own needs, and have my son compromise with me so that we both could be happy. It's not exactly HM=HB, but it's definitely a compromise.

Which is do believe departs from the topic, which refers to whether the phrase is bandied around too much to appease guilt for the mother not necessarily doing the 'best' for her baby ('best' is in quotation marks because it's a subjective measurement). Yes I do think it is bandied around too much. I think you can be in pain, not get enough sleep, be generally unfulfilled and, as a result, have a secure, happy baby.

That's why I think the rather flippant phrase of HM=HB is NOT the same as discussing fulfillment. And I think bringing fulfillment into it muddies the waters, and perhaps is what brought this thread off-track. I think it's okay for someone to say 'I'm unfulfilled as a SAHM' - all it proves is that you DON'T have to be a happy mum to have a happy child. That sacrifices made sometimes, at the mother's expense, pays dividends in your child.

But in the end, everyone balances out how MUCH sacrifice they're willing to make. And I agree, that when someone comes in here looking for validation, the HM=HB phrase thrown around doesn't do a lot more than appease that person, without pointing out how, sometimes, trying to work out the problem, taking a different tack, looking for pofessional assistance or even giving it time, might present a better outcome for baby after all.

[sushee]

I definitely understand that not all mummies are created equal in the resilience stakes and need a leg up and need compromises.

Sorry Maya, but this is an example of what I mean - I see this as an insinutation that by compromising their child's needs to achieve their needs, they're not resilient.

Now I would make clear that I personally am not defensive about that. I believe I'm as resilient as the next person, if not more, for the compromises I have made. I just wanted to point out though, that this is the kind of phrase that gets people's backs up.

[*Efjay*]

"I didn't think I could and there, I proved that I'm super-capable of daunting tasks"!

too true, I had never looked at it that way. but then I wouldn't have thought "I don't think I can" simply because I know I can do anything if I put my mind too it.

[Smoke Jaguar]

Sushee, I think we got caught up with the fulfilment thing when another poster brought it into the fray a few pages back and we've been fleshing that one out WRT to the statement ever since! In a good way, I think - it's been very interesting and stimulating conversation ever since
ETA: I meant 'resilience' in the psychological way, I should have clarified - it's a term used in personality assessment. I didn't mean it as a value judgment - very different things and I'll clarify it next time

[Crystalwings]

In some ways I find this thread very judgemental even though it is a good topic. I just want to add that for some to hear HM=HB is there ticket out of something they didn't or did want to do. Say if they wanted to co-sleep but thought it was dangerous until someone they knew suggested it would make their baby happier HM=HB or vice versa and both got a great outcome. I also believe that in regards to BFing it is unfair to say that every woman who chooses to FF isn't truly happy. There are plenty of women out there perfectly happy with this and just because we all know that BFing is best doesn't mean they are any less of a mother because they believe they are creating a happier household. It is also about the other people in the family not just mother and baby. Also everyone has a different definition of happiness and what makes you happy and if a parent feels the need to use childcare or go out for a coffee for some sanity it is not our right to judge them and take anything away from their role as a mother. Who are we to say who should and shouldn't have children because none of us are perfect and most of us strive to be the best we can be even if that isn't good enough for some. Everyone is in different stages of their life when they become parents and it effects everyone differently. Also how much support, your personality lots of things come into how you parent but it doesn't mean one way is better then the other. IMO we are here to support one another and if that means some fuzzy words now and then then thats ok.
Someone mentioned earlier about being stimulated by adults and teachers mustn't be stimulated etc well thats not really a fair argument either because they talk to other teachers in the staff room and parents, even the lolly pop lady.
I also believe that while obviously your identity changes when you have a child it's ok to feel like you have left something behind and pine for that occasionally, it's healthy but at the end of the day you know if your children are or aren't happy and you do something to correct that. You can still be a dedicated parent if you feel this way and it is wrong to say just because you have dreams outside parenthood you aren't 100% dedicated. Your children will leave one day and IMO it is good to retain some independence so that when that time comes it isn't so traumatic for the mother.
It used to be that a village raised a child and it's still that way in lots of other cultures and animal kingdoms and children can be stimulated by people other then their parents and still be happy and so can the parents.
Hope my little rant makes sense. I'm sure there's more but that will do for now.

[Smoke Jaguar]

Who are we to say who should and shouldn't have children

Well, for the record, all of us still in the thread haven't said that.
As for fulfilment, I thought we'd got past that sticking point - which was brought up by a member who left, possibly due to confusion over what we were talking about.
The topic is not about mental stimulation and SAHM's in the least.
No-one here has at all said the FF mums are ALL unhappy with what led them there. That's just making stuff up about what's been said in this thread.
We've been saying what we're saying and no more. Any other conclusions, assumptions or parallels you want to draw are at your own peril! The thread could really degenerate if you're going to assume we're talking about ALL mothers again - we are not. We're talking about vulnerable mothers who want to hear this to justify decisions that may or may not, in reality, lead to that Happy Baby...as long as they hear the 'Happy Mummy' bit. At least, that's what I'm working on here.

[sunshine_sieben]

At least, that's what I'm working on here.

Oh, I just love this little snippet of your post, Mayaness. It just points out that our posts are all a work in progress. They never tell the whole story as we are in the process of mulling over the subject while we post, raising issues and discussing them. A thread like this is an evolution of thought processes. Somebody might raise a point that might make me change the way I view something (not likely, since I'm always right )

Saša

PS: the bit about me always being right is of course tongue in cheek. just thought I'd clarify!